Should I stay or should I go now?
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@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So he has to decide if this gamble is worthwhile.
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@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
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@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
The next option is management and this employer requires a 4 year degree for that.
This alone is reason to leave. If you want personal growth, this isn't a company that takes what you do seriously. If they don't see their managers as important, you shouldn't either. Nothing wrong with working for companies like this, but there is no way to have a requirement like that and think that they are serious about these positions. This is an attempt at "middling", which lots of companies need to do. But this goes against your goals for advancement.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
I have no degree and about 15 years total IT experience, so at this point I'm not sure a degree would help me for the amount of effort required.
It doesn't help you even if you have zero experience. Degrees don't work that way, and aren't meant to.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
I've been with my current employer about a year, but I'm constantly being offered more money to leave. Sometimes the upward of 20-30k of an increase.
I like my current employer and they are giving me room to grow with training however I feel that I may be tapped out on the technical side.
Sounds like you are way past them at this point. Sounds like you are on a trajectory that doesn't fit their needs. Your description, which is all that we have to go on, suggests that you are on a career path to really do something while they are just looking for mid-range mediocre people to be tech fodder. Nothing at all wrong with either side of that scenario, they two just don't fit together well. You've gotten a good run out of the situation it seems, time to part ways as friends rather than waiting till someone is annoyed that it has gone on too long.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Move on then. There is no future where you are. Free training is great and all but stagnating is horrible.
Yep.
But - if you really like your current employer, you should sit down with him, and maybe his boss too. Explain the situation. They might make a change.
What is the limitation of the next promotion? Does it have a pay cap that you feel you can/should exceed?
Do you feel you bring more value to the company than that cap allows? If so, definitely talk to them about it. Worst they can say is no.I'm curious what others think about if you should mention the other job offers or not?
I'm not sure that helps much in enterprise environment. Getting HR policies changed is an act of God.
HR never blocks you in the enterprise (okay SOMEWHERE anecdotally is really low end enterprise) but no serious shop and basically no large one. This is an SMB myth perpetuated by people either trying to provide excuses about not getting ahead and trying to blame something that they feel does not reflect poorly on them, or by people looking to reverse justify their own life choices by attempting to bully others into them. I've been in enterprise IT for ~30 years and I've never seen this once and I know a lot of people in enterprise IT and we never hear about this. That doesn't mean it never happens, but logically it doesn't make sense and observationally it doesn't really happen except when hiring for entry level.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
The demand in security is so insane right now. Our organization was scared that people were going to leave because we lost some security people to a competitor.
On fact, they were so worried they pulled my department into a special meeting and promised increases if we stay. Those increases were somewhat substantial, but security in the local area is paying more still
They they weren't really very substantial.
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@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
I'm curious what others think about if you should mention the other job offers or not?
Only in your exit interview. There is no condition under which you counter with a threat of another job. Never. That's a poisoned well. Once you are at that point, it's over.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
On fact, they were so worried they pulled my department into a special meeting and promised increases if we stay. Those increases were somewhat substantial, but security in the local area is paying more still
Sounds like someone found a way around the HR monster.
Which makes me think it won't happen again. One negotiation with HR is difficult enough. It took 6 months to happen
That HR has anything to do with this process means you are at a very unhealthy organization that isn't driven by doing a good job or making money. It's politically motivated for the personal goals of people in the middle of the organization. This explains other things you've described like the low pay and managers that don't respect themselves. Definitely time to move on.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
On fact, they were so worried they pulled my department into a special meeting and promised increases if we stay. Those increases were somewhat substantial, but security in the local area is paying more still
Sounds like someone found a way around the HR monster.
Which makes me think it won't happen again. One negotiation with HR is difficult enough. It took 6 months to happen
you have weak leadership at the company then.
Leadership is the one that made the change initially. They had to create a new department, job titles, etc
Leadership answers to HR about hiring and pay? That's very, very unhealthy. How would HR have any ability to properly determine that? This indicates that senior management is very, very lost.
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@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Every company promises these things. It's very, very rare that they can deliver them. And startups do it by being agile and modern. This is a company already hampered by HR and politics. Their ability to actually deliver on something like this would be fractional compared to a real startup.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have.
The highest security offerings I've ever heard of were to SMBs. Not because they were SMBs, just worked out that way. But often that's where the really agile, interesting folks are located. The most secure financial in the world is a large SMB. You might be surprised that very, very few enterprises actually have that much security, often it is just low paid administrative work.
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@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
Well, except for the cost of lost opportunity. How much career advancement do you give up to sit in a low paying shop that isn't really focused on excellence? A year is a lot of career time to sacrifice.
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@scottalanmiller said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
Well, except for the cost of lost opportunity. How much career advancement do you give up to sit in a low paying shop that isn't really focused on excellence? A year is a lot of career time to sacrifice.
Potentially none. That is the entire point you are ignoring.
Depending on how the project goes he could move to C level and be subsequently ahead of where he would be if he moves now.
It is not always black and white Scott.
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@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@scottalanmiller said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
Well, except for the cost of lost opportunity. How much career advancement do you give up to sit in a low paying shop that isn't really focused on excellence? A year is a lot of career time to sacrifice.
Potentially none. That is the entire point you are ignoring.
Depending on how the project goes he could move to C level and be subsequently ahead of where he would be if he moves now.
It is not always black and white Scott.
Sure that's true - but if HR is truly the one holding back pay raises - then they are equally as likely to keep pay for any new C-levels low or non existent.
The markings of bad management are already there. -
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@scottalanmiller said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
Well, except for the cost of lost opportunity. How much career advancement do you give up to sit in a low paying shop that isn't really focused on excellence? A year is a lot of career time to sacrifice.
Potentially none. That is the entire point you are ignoring.
Depending on how the project goes he could move to C level and be subsequently ahead of where he would be if he moves now.
It is not always black and white Scott.
I never said it was. But there IS a cost of lost opportunity. There is all the same potential going somewhere else, as well, but potentially sooner and with more money. No job, none, comes without a cost of lost opportunity.
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@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@scottalanmiller said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@JaredBusch said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
@Dashrender said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
Don't allow the company to make excuses that hinder your growth. If they can't keep up with the other companies in your area/field, then you have no choice but to leave.
But, if they really are a good company, they will make these changes rapidly, as needed to keep good employees.
You also missed this point..
@Some_user said in Should I stay or should I go now?:
One of the appealing things about my current role is I have an opportunity to build something from the ground up. I wouldn't be qualified to do this type of niche within information security otherwise. The serious upside is that this role could potentially double my salary. However if the program doesn't take off then I could potentially waste quite a bit of time money (potential higher salary)
So it sounds like there is more than jsut higher wages elsewhere involved here. It sounds like a startup within a larger enterprise.
That kind of thing can be lucrative. Just like any other start up.
Something similar to this, but no quite. I have the opportunity to be the lead on something that SMBs would never have. Every enterprise and government organization has this area of information security though. It's somewhat less technical than what I've done in the past, but I'm starting to see a top out in the technical part of my career anyway.
I could have more money right now if I wanted because the demand is so high its ridiculous, but I don't think I'd have the opportunity to do what I am doing now somewhere else. If I can establish this area, it could potentially pay off huge.
It could potentially put me in the path of a C level position. There would be another step after this, but I wouldn't be far off.
I am a type that would grab an opportunity that works with my life, and this sounds exactly like something I woudl do in your position.
Security related work will be in huge demands for years to come.
So I would take this risk and stay on for a year. If it fails, move on. You are out a bit of a short term wage increase in that instance, but the potential long term is higher faster. Risk vs. Reward, only you can make that call.
That's exactly the time frame I was thinking. See what happens in another year. I agree that the demand is high and not going away anytime soon. So either way I will be in a a better place in a year.
Well, except for the cost of lost opportunity. How much career advancement do you give up to sit in a low paying shop that isn't really focused on excellence? A year is a lot of career time to sacrifice.
Potentially none. That is the entire point you are ignoring.
Depending on how the project goes he could move to C level and be subsequently ahead of where he would be if he moves now.
It is not always black and white Scott.
Sure that's true - but if HR is truly the one holding back pay raises - then they are equally as likely to keep pay for any new C-levels low or non existent.
The markings of bad management are already there.And it sounds like HR has the power to ban him from being the one that gets that C level position, regardless of the work that he does.
