Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
I find it odd that they feel this way, too, as tech skills will pay into the seven figure range.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
Technically the Peter Principle is about promotion, not a lateral move. Management is not a promotion from IT. It's a shift of job. The Peter Principle is about moving someone up the ladder that they are on until they no longer excel, not that they fail. Anything that involves a change of job, like moving to management, is neither following the Peter nor the alternative Dilbert Principles, but just changing jobs.
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We use the Radford system. I know that my current "Track" startles the manager track to where I make as much (or more) than some managers within the company. Now there is a "wall" as an individual contributor where management tracks will be required to go higher... but there are a lot of tracks and sometimes just changing to a different one can provide mobility up in compensation without having to go into management. It's a quite nice system as it allows you to know where you are going. My current job on my track a band 5 (Senior TMM Architect). I know the next step up is Staff Architect. There are points where in order to get further raises, and bonus % and RSU grant sizes I'll need to move up and I have a clear document with expectations across 7 categories of what skills are required to get that band and it's title. I also know that if I want to go beyond band 7 I'll need a new Track and have to change my job role.
https://radford.aon.com/aon.radford/media/images/articles/2015//032015_job_leveling_04.png
https://radford.aon.com/insights/articles/2015/radford-global-job-leveling
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When I was at the bank, I was SVP in salary and responsibility (ability to override rules, not fire people.) I reported to a VP, but I made way more than him and had authority to authorize system changes and outages, to override policy and physical access to the systems (like the actual trading floor) that was above even SVP level.
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@scottalanmiller This is why I like our system. It accepts that non-management personal will be "higher" than management in some cases.
Overly simple systems (How many degree's away from the CEO on the org chart are you?) lead to area's with highly over and underpaid (or artificially inflated or non-inflated management layers). Our company is pretty "lean" on management overhead as a result.
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
It's he an admin? Engineering is lateral to admin, but can't go quite as high.
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@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
Exactly. This is 100% true.
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@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
I think people in this community has very different employers: we have no management role. I simply do it all: strategy proposals (ok let call them stratigies....), HW picking and sizing, setup, debug, customer care, sweeping.
this has been so in every place I've worked in. do not expect any change in this. rather the contents of the work let me think about a promotion.
Unless you are the CEO or owner of the company, there is always a management role.
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@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
That's why I was careful to add benefits, I agree. I've taken a 90% cut in pay over my last corporate offer to have a lot more time with the family and freedom to do what I enjoy.
Not everyone has the luxury of making that choice though. You have a very unique situation
Most everyone has the luxury, very few take it. Had you asked me before I did it if I had that luxury, I'm sure I would have said "no" too.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
Exactly. This is 100% true.
So scott when you were managing banks on Wall Street, you considered your self no longer a part of IT?
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@John-Nicholson said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller This is why I like our system. It accepts that non-management personal will be "higher" than management in some cases.
Overly simple systems (How many degree's away from the CEO on the org chart are you?) lead to area's with highly over and underpaid (or artificially inflated or non-inflated management layers). Our company is pretty "lean" on management overhead as a result.
I've never seen this happen first hand outside of the SMB where, more or less by definition, management is incompetent.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
Exactly. This is 100% true.
So scott when you were managing banks on Wall Street, you considered your self no longer a part of IT?
I never stopped being the technical point of escalation. My job was always technical. I did technical work all day, every day. But with the authority and access of an SVP / EVP. My job was to manage the actual technology at a level without any oversight because when things go wrong, there is no time to get approval and the risk of anyone that doesn't have all the info making decisions is too high.
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@scottalanmiller Verizon operates this way (Although Telecom and competence are kinda a mess) With certain compensation levels being done based on if your a band 4 (you go down in band as you get closer to the CEO).
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
That's why I was careful to add benefits, I agree. I've taken a 90% cut in pay over my last corporate offer to have a lot more time with the family and freedom to do what I enjoy.
Not everyone has the luxury of making that choice though. You have a very unique situation
Most everyone has the luxury, very few take it. Had you asked me before I did it if I had that luxury, I'm sure I would have said "no" too.
There are so many poorly qualified individuals at the upper levels of IT in large companies I'm pretty sure a mildly intelligent coconut would have the opportunity at the right time. Anyone with a room temperature IQ or higher can make 6 figures in IT somewhere.
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@John-Nicholson said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
That's why I was careful to add benefits, I agree. I've taken a 90% cut in pay over my last corporate offer to have a lot more time with the family and freedom to do what I enjoy.
Not everyone has the luxury of making that choice though. You have a very unique situation
Most everyone has the luxury, very few take it. Had you asked me before I did it if I had that luxury, I'm sure I would have said "no" too.
There are so many poorly qualified individuals at the upper levels of IT in large companies I'm pretty sure a mildly intelligent coconut would have the opportunity at the right time. Anyone with a room temperature IQ or higher can make 6 figures in IT somewhere.
I know positions in Dallas that were paying nearly $200K for people nowhere near @wirestyle22 capabilities.
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@scottalanmiller I think people who are payed low wages sometimes internalize that that is all they are worth (and SMB managers often try to instill this "don't view yourself as valuable or increase your value because I can't pay you more!").
If your feeling this go listen to Katy Perry or something...
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@John-Nicholson said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller I think people who are payed low wages sometimes internalize that that is all they are worth (and SMB managers often try to instill this "don't view yourself as valuable or increase your value because I can't pay you more!").
If your feeling this go listen to Katy Perry or something...
Yeah, like go to Vegas and gamble everything away!
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
Only step up... where you are? Management is not an step UP from the trenches, it is a step to the side. Management is not above technical work, it is simply a different (and easier) role.
I will correct my statement to say Step Out, then.
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@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
Only step up... where you are? Management is not an step UP from the trenches, it is a step to the side. Management is not above technical work, it is simply a different (and easier) role.
I will correct my statement to say Step Out, then.
Not your only step out, then, you have a whole world of options that are not management.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
I think people in this community has very different employers: we have no management role. I simply do it all: strategy proposals (ok let call them stratigies....), HW picking and sizing, setup, debug, customer care, sweeping.
this has been so in every place I've worked in. do not expect any change in this. rather the contents of the work let me think about a promotion.
Unless you are the CEO or owner of the company, there is always a management role.
What I mean is I manage engineer and deply all in IT. You can say I am COO and CTO for IT here. But actually I am just a dumb guy.
