XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective
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@scottalanmiller Single Pane of Glass
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@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@BRRABill said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@scottalanmiller said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@DustinB3403 said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
Flat out saying it "cost to much to take your money" is literally turning customers away.
It is, but it is also turning away small customers that might not be profitable and what they have to consider is the risk that this poses to bigger customers. I don't agree with the approach, but they have sound logic for why they do what they do. All customers are not good customers.
If I remember the conversation correctly (we went through all of this with @olivier on a ML thread) that was the crux of it, that it cost too much to support the smaller clients, since they don't have that many people.
The issue that I have with this is that if you have the staff to support XS, why would you need olivier to support it? Olivier's job would stop at XOA (unless it was an XOSAN) installation.
Which if the goal is to support XS and XOSAN than the pricing model still doesn't make sense as there are other products that do what XOSAN does and are further along in development.
Uh what other VSAs are there for XenServer?
DRBD and Starwind, for example. DRBD is not VSA, it's just RLS. You don't actually want VSA if you can help it. Starwind is VSA as a fallback. On Hyper-V, it's not a VSA, it's native.
That's kind of what I was getting at. There isn't a solution that's as easy to deploy as XO for this. Small shops most likely won't have the time spent to manage a DRBD setup, esp if something goes wrong.
Small shops are probably topping at two nodes and using StarWinds for free on Hyper-V.
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@Danp said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller Single Pane of Glass
OH!
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@BRRABill said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@scottalanmiller said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@DustinB3403 said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
Flat out saying it "cost to much to take your money" is literally turning customers away.
It is, but it is also turning away small customers that might not be profitable and what they have to consider is the risk that this poses to bigger customers. I don't agree with the approach, but they have sound logic for why they do what they do. All customers are not good customers.
If I remember the conversation correctly (we went through all of this with @olivier on a ML thread) that was the crux of it, that it cost too much to support the smaller clients, since they don't have that many people.
The issue that I have with this is that if you have the staff to support XS, why would you need olivier to support it? Olivier's job would stop at XOA (unless it was an XOSAN) installation.
Which if the goal is to support XS and XOSAN than the pricing model still doesn't make sense as there are other products that do what XOSAN does and are further along in development.
Uh what other VSAs are there for XenServer?
DRBD and Starwind, for example. DRBD is not VSA, it's just RLS. You don't actually want VSA if you can help it. Starwind is VSA as a fallback. On Hyper-V, it's not a VSA, it's native.
That's kind of what I was getting at. There isn't a solution that's as easy to deploy as XO for this. Small shops most likely won't have the time spent to manage a DRBD setup, esp if something goes wrong.
Small shops are probably topping at two nodes and using StarWinds for free on Hyper-V.
Starwinds is always free, no node limit. Just in case anyone thought that that was implied.
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@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@stacksofplates said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@BRRABill said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@scottalanmiller said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
@DustinB3403 said in 5Nine Free Hyper-V Manager No Long Available:
Flat out saying it "cost to much to take your money" is literally turning customers away.
It is, but it is also turning away small customers that might not be profitable and what they have to consider is the risk that this poses to bigger customers. I don't agree with the approach, but they have sound logic for why they do what they do. All customers are not good customers.
If I remember the conversation correctly (we went through all of this with @olivier on a ML thread) that was the crux of it, that it cost too much to support the smaller clients, since they don't have that many people.
The issue that I have with this is that if you have the staff to support XS, why would you need olivier to support it? Olivier's job would stop at XOA (unless it was an XOSAN) installation.
Which if the goal is to support XS and XOSAN than the pricing model still doesn't make sense as there are other products that do what XOSAN does and are further along in development.
Uh what other VSAs are there for XenServer?
DRBD and Starwind, for example. DRBD is not VSA, it's just RLS. You don't actually want VSA if you can help it. Starwind is VSA as a fallback. On Hyper-V, it's not a VSA, it's native.
That's kind of what I was getting at. There isn't a solution that's as easy to deploy as XO for this. Small shops most likely won't have the time spent to manage a DRBD setup, esp if something goes wrong.
Although HA-Lizard automates and supports that. So it's really not much of a burden and there is always someone there to help out.
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So back to the OP what would work if XOA was a US based company with US backers?
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And the issue that I see with the last remark from the 5nine topic is that XOA is attempting to target only the big fish.
Which the SMB space is where I've seen a lot of conversation about XS
The big fish though likely don't have a need for XOA as is.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
So back to the OP what would work if XOA was a US based company with US backers?
Different perspectives on how to make money. SMB market essentially does not exist in Europe, only SME, so financing in Europe is focused on "boxes" and big customers, rather than on support and services. Europe is primarily still a "sell us a box" 1990s business world whereas the US has for decades moved into the next tier of services. Sadly, this is one area that Europe is dramatically lagging the US and it is primarily that European financiers see the world this way. European entrepreneurs know that this is backwards and crazy, but there is nothing that they can do if they want financing.
This is why I think a venture fund focused on American financial know how and European entrepreneurs is a massive opportunity.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The big fish though likely don't have a need for XOA as is.
Correct, making a box that is only affordable by people who don't need it.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The big fish though likely don't have a need for XOA as is.
Correct, making a box that is only affordable by people who don't need it.
Which is why the box pricing doesn't fit with much of the world. I'm sure some businesses have a need. But an appliance at this price point is just to much.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
SMB market essentially does not exist in Europe, only SME
WTF?!
I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB. And that's not a finance issue IMHO it is just company owners mindset. Every time I've talked to someone about the topic, they say: if you have money you buy stuff otherwise you have to "rent". rent things, people (service is seen as this) and so on...
they still lack the ability to understand the man x hour cost of a solution and how a service can be useful even if a markup is applied to it. just because the service is provided at scale and so it is cheeper.
A common thing I listen to is: I've employed that guy anyway, so he still have to do something for this company. man x hour if a fixed cost. adding a service is extra cost. They lack the ability to understand that a service frees you from non core-business tasks.
example:
I was talking about this very topic: put a couple of things in housing. small datacenter in town, tier 2. remove the electicity power cost and you easily see how an housing in a tier 2 datasenter 15' min from your company is really more valuable than the closet+home style AC you put in it. not to talk about security systems and emergency systems.
still: they almost prefer to build a closet. because if you project the cost on 10 year it is cheeper. well: 10 years for a server closet in an SMB? wrong projection timeframe sorry. in 10 years everything will be upsidedown !
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
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@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.
The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
BACK ON TOPIC:
yeah I really like the pay per service approach. XOA would be nice if you have to pay for a professional setup and/or a flat fee for annual support. Usually opensource companies run on this: ask money for high grade professional support, not for the product.
The issue is that there is a flat fee for each level of service, and that the flat fee is exorbitant compared to just installing it your self.
The only item that isn't currently available AFAIK is XOSAN.
You shouldn't be comparing the cost of the product. You should be comparing the cost/value of support versus no support, especially if XOSAN is not something you care about. Competitors to XOSAN are in some cases free, so that further removes cash worthiness of that feature, and drives to only looking at the value of the support.
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The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
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The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
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Now if personally, I'm having an issue would just throw the box away and install a new one. Because I can export and import my config files.
Which pulls in all of the details from the old box. So many odd issues that I may have aren't worth my time to investigate.
And is why you'll see me tell people to just build a new box.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
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No, I'm saying if the solution is open source don't also have a "closed" version that the developer will support. Simplify the entire thing, create an all in one appliance and allow people to outright buy support. Not the product/features.
That would eliminate the need to have the community installer and updater (but it could still exist). This then allows people and businesses to say "well that is awesome, lets get support"
Rather than saying "shit. . . it cost so much for support, but I can just install the community version and wing it"
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
The point your glossing over (I believe) is that if you need additional features you're paying substantially more per month. With a different appliance.
There is functionality disabled in each different version of XOA. But with XO everything is there for you to use or not. A flat support fee "for all you can eat" would drive the community installer usefulness down and drive up XOA's value and support value substantially.
