SMB vs Enterprise
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
European work law is great, especially if you have a family. It's similar to Italy or better in most European countries.
In most ways, yes. The problem is that it sometimes creates extreme hardship on employers which, in turn, results in fewer jobs which is a contributor to why so unemployment is as high as it is. And foreign investors often choose to avoid the market because the costs of doing business are so ridiculously high. This sends often highly skilled jobs to other markets which would be perfect to have had in Europe.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@matteo-nunziati said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@John-Nicholson said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller My Paternity benefits are 15 weeks paid. No SMB could afford to offer that.
In italy any company has to grant 9 month full salary to be splitted between father/mother. then you can has for extra time with halved salary. it is fixed by law. of course company can give bonuses but it doesn't happen.
So the father/mother get to pick whose employer has to pay? Any given employer might pay zero or the full nine months?
European work law is great, especially if you have a family. It's similar to Italy or better in most European countries.
In most ways, yes. The problem is that it sometimes creates extreme hardship on employers which, in turn, results in fewer jobs which is a contributor to why so unemployment is as high as it is. And foreign investors often choose to avoid the market because the costs of doing business are so ridiculously high. This sends often highly skilled jobs to other markets which would be perfect to have had in Europe.
Yes I can see that... but I thought they got help from their governments via increased taxes and other ways.
In the past, I've actually done the math to figure out the differences in wage taxes and the benefits you receive.
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less. You are actually left with more money in your pocket as a worker here (in Sweden), even though you pay more in taxes. (note: it depends on your wages in both countries, the more you make the more you pay in taxes, but I'm speaking in general) But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S. That alone speaks for itself, but nobody takes into account the massive amount of other costs you pay in the U.S. for the same stuff you get for "free" over here.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less.
I've run the numbers and found that even when I lived and worked in Texas that I was taxed more heavily in the US than in Europe. The US doesn't report all taxes under the heading of taxes to make it look lower. Europe lumps more of your taxes under a single heading. So in reporting, the US looks lower than it really is. My tax rate when living in Texas was 52% in 2009 - 2013. Had I been in NYC, it could have hit 60% for the same work situation in theory (TX has no state tax.) This does not include sales or property taxes, this is purely my income taxes.
That puts it above nearly anyone in the EU.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
My results were that an average family pays more in the U.S., even though you are taxed less.
I've run the numbers and found that even when I lived and worked in Texas that I was taxed more heavily in the US than in Europe. The US doesn't report all taxes under the heading of taxes to make it look lower. Europe lumps more of your taxes under a single heading. So in reporting, the US looks lower than it really is. My tax rate when living in Texas was 52% in 2009 - 2013. Had I been in NYC, it could have hit 60% for the same work situation in theory (TX has no state tax.) This does not include sales or property taxes, this is purely my income taxes.
That puts it above nearly anyone in the EU.
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too. I didn't look at the actual income:tax% chart, but I'm assuming an income of the same amount in Europe would also result in much higher taxes.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Yes I can see that... but I thought they got help from their governments via increased taxes and other ways.
That help has to come from the employed, which are fewer. I know that I've done it personally, selecting non-EU locations for workers because it doesn't make sense to jump through all of the hoops required to pay people in Europe. It only makes sense if you need physical, in person work done (e.g. not very high end and rarely very technical.)
As someone who worked for a massive company's offshored IT team in Manhattan, I dealt with this for a long time. Tens of thousands of six figure workers living and paid in Manhattan to do EU work because it was cheaper to have them in Manhattan than in the EU.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
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@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
Didn't know that. Back when I was looking at things, it was a big difference. But I guess at some point it gets to the same, like when you compare cold temperatures in Fahrenheit and Celsius... in the negatives there is a point where they are the same
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
I do. That's every deduction fro my paycheck.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
You also need to include whatever out of pocket expenses you pay for doctor and hospital visits, prescriptions, daycare/childcare, certain education expenses, etc. When you actually add all the things up that a typical family (with college education) pays for, you're much better off in some EU countries.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
Well your wages in the U.S. to put you in the 52% bracket, would I'm sure be higher in Europe too.
No, it was definitely a percentage or two higher in the US for the same pay.
Didn't know that. Back when I was looking at things, it was a big difference. But I guess at some point it gets to the same, like when you compare cold temperatures in Fahrenheit and Celsius... in the negatives there is a point where they are the same
Yeah, I would actually have lowered my taxes moving to almost anywhere in the EU. Then gotten loads of benefits on top of paying fewer taxes. Only bad part is that the US looks to see what you pay in the EU and if it is not as high as in the US, you pay the difference to the US anyway. So you never actually get to lower it.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
You also need to include whatever out of pocket expenses you pay for doctor and hospital visits, prescriptions, daycare/childcare, certain education expenses, etc. When you actually add all the things up that a typical family (with college education) pays for, you're much better off in some EU countries.
There's some out of pocket here too... but it's like 1 dollar. You can't count that.
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
You also need to include whatever out of pocket expenses you pay for doctor and hospital visits, prescriptions, daycare/childcare, certain education expenses, etc. When you actually add all the things up that a typical family (with college education) pays for, you're much better off in some EU countries.
You should add those when considering a cost of living comparison, but not necessarily in a tax calculation. The base insurance is a requirement (e.g. tax) but actually getting healthcare is not required (e.g. a needed cost, but not a tax.)
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@dafyre said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
But of course nobody focuses on what the actual amounts you pay for things are, they all focus on strictly the ~30-33%-ish taxes in Sweden for example, vs the 15-20% or whatever in the U.S.
Those sound like corporate, rather than income, tax rates.
Yeah. I'm paying ~35% of my check to Federal, State, and Local taxes.
You must include all of your healthcare costs if you are in the US as those are actually a federal tax now.
You also need to include whatever out of pocket expenses you pay for doctor and hospital visits, prescriptions, daycare/childcare, certain education expenses, etc. When you actually add all the things up that a typical family (with college education) pays for, you're much better off in some EU countries.
You should add those when considering a cost of living comparison, but not necessarily in a tax calculation. The base insurance is a requirement (e.g. tax) but actually getting healthcare is not required (e.g. a needed cost, but not a tax.)
Some U.S. companies provide healthcare cost-free to you, which is nice... but those are the exceptions and really don't apply to the majority. I'm trying to speak in general.
But yes you're right, that stuff is cost of living. The regular healthcare paycheck deductions are not and would be lumped in with the tax comparison.
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If you have children, it's crazy. In San Diego, for example, if you want your child in a mostly decent place while you work or whatever, it's minimum a grand a month, per child.
Free in Sweden. That crap can add up, fast, especially if you have multiple children.
This is an older article, but the basic points are pretty much on par: https://newrepublic.com/article/118294/us-should-copy-sweden-and-denmarks-work-family-policies
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@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
If you have children, it's crazy. In San Diego, for example, if you want your child in a mostly decent place while you work or whatever, it's minimum a grand a month, per child.
Free in Sweden. That crap can add up, fast, especially if you have multiple children.
This is an older article, but the basic points are pretty much on par: https://newrepublic.com/article/118294/us-should-copy-sweden-and-denmarks-work-family-policies
We're at $50/day in upstate NY... one of the poorest counties in the state actually. So if we sent Emilia full time it would be $1,000 a month. Granted this is on the higher end of daycare around here. They do a lot of early childhood and pre-k education. The average is ~$35-40/day
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@coliver said in SMB vs Enterprise:
@Tim_G said in SMB vs Enterprise:
If you have children, it's crazy. In San Diego, for example, if you want your child in a mostly decent place while you work or whatever, it's minimum a grand a month, per child.
Free in Sweden. That crap can add up, fast, especially if you have multiple children.
This is an older article, but the basic points are pretty much on par: https://newrepublic.com/article/118294/us-should-copy-sweden-and-denmarks-work-family-policies
We're at $50/day in upstate NY... one of the poorest counties in the state actually. So if we sent Emilia full time it would be $1,000 a month. Granted this is on the higher end of daycare around here. They do a lot of early childhood and pre-k education. The average is ~$35-40/day
Yeah exactly.
We'd love to do that, but can't afford child care. So I work during the day, my wife stays home. And she does night classes for her degree, while I am home with the children.
Our oldest child starts kindergarten this fall, so it'll hopefully be a little easier for her to study during the day. But still, I wish there was a good place to take them for free.
Though, it's good for the children to be with their parents more instead of away from them all day. So that part is great.
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Meanwhile in EU, they pretty much force you to be home with your children, with pay... and still give great childcare, "free". Free being you pay higher taxes, but that pays for itself so easy!
