Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM



  • Caveats: I'm assuming this person isn't lying about their position and Sage's policies.

    From https://sagecity.na.sage.com/support_communities/sage50_accounting_us/f/132/p/103023/287337 Of course I'd rather hear "yes, we support running Sage in line with the accepted best-practice of virtualize as much as possible," but this is a step in the right direction. I'll contact Sage Business Care directly to see if they give me a similar story.

    Sure, I'll chime in. :)

    I work for Sage and while I am authorized to provide honest answers here in the forums it does come with the caveat that I do not have any decision making power, and my explanation that follows is only how I understand it--which is likely pretty close to the truth, but if you're looking for an according-to-Hoyle legal explanation, I'd have to get back to you.

    As for official support for Hyper-V, I wouldn't say it would never happen, but considering how long virtualization has been out, I'd say it will be unlikely to ever have official support--and I'll explain why. "Official support" usually translates to a combination of two things:

    1. Officially tested in QA
    2. Support personnel trained on its use

    While 1 is most certainly true, 2 will more than likely never be true.
    However, all that being said, the support we provide (and what you should expect if you call), is what we define as "best effort." Yes, virtual environments are "officially" unsupported, but we will attempt to support you as best we can, realizing that likely the issue is not related to the fact that you're on a virtual machine. We will troubleshoot as far as we can until we determine that the issue is likely related to your environment. We will not automatically just turn you away once we hear "virtual machine". Any analyst that does so is not following our guidelines.

    You can expect application support being on a virtual machine, but there are indeed good reasons we do not officially support it. We get many calls from people, IT personnel included, who want us to configure their virtual machines. Our software needs to activate--to "phone home" to our activation servers, and often proxies are not configured properly to give VMs access--and we don't want to have our analysts doing this kind of operation.


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    As for official support for Hyper-V, I wouldn't say it would never happen, but considering how long virtualization has been out, I'd say it will be unlikely to ever have official support--

    Read: We don't take our product seriously and it cannot be considered business class software. It's a joke, we know it's a joke and we don't care because it's not our intention that real businesses use this joke.


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    "Official support" usually translates to a combination of two things:

    1. Officially tested in QA
    2. Support personnel trained on its use

    Read: Sage has no IT staff and has never tested our own products in even a minimally production ready environment.


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Our software needs to activate--to "phone home" to our activation servers, and often proxies are not configured properly to give VMs access--and we don't want to have our analysts doing this kind of operation.

    So? This is the case with physical, too. But they didn't block support for that.


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    We get many calls from people, IT personnel included, who want us to configure their virtual machines.

    But they are okay configuring their physical machines? This logic doesn't hold up.


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    You can expect application support being on a virtual machine, but there are indeed good reasons we do not officially support it.

    Because this is just not business class software.


  • Service Provider

    Bottom line... if there is no supported configuration of software on a viable production stack... it's not production capable software. Plain and simple.



  • @scottalanmiller I understand; however, I'm happy that they at least won't just say "nope, you're on a VM, sorry." Right now there is a 0% chance of us no longer using Sage 50. At the very least, this allows me to turn this desktop-as-a-server into a VM with fairly good assurance that we'll still have the application support from Sage Business Care.



  • Ha. . . didn't even get a chance to respond to the thread. .



  • +6 to Scott :P


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    @scottalanmiller I understand; however, I'm happy that they at least won't just say "nope, you're on a VM, sorry." Right now there is a 0% chance of us no longer using Sage 50.

    Well if you work at a hobby, no reason to leave ;)


  • Service Provider

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    ....Sage "Business" Care.

    FTFY


  • Service Provider

    0_1496693400934_dr-evil-quote-business.jpg



  • @scottalanmiller said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    0_1496693400934_dr-evil-quote-business.jpg

    haha.. . .

    i'm using that



  • @scottalanmiller said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    As for official support for Hyper-V, I wouldn't say it would never happen, but considering how long virtualization has been out, I'd say it will be unlikely to ever have official support--

    Read: We don't take our product seriously and it cannot be considered business class software. It's a joke, we know it's a joke and we don't care because it's not our intention that real businesses use this joke.

    Exactly my thoughts when reading it, too.



  • I have to say, working at a place that does have to support devices we make, they have a point, somewhat. I dont do any product support, we have a Tech Support division for that, that is what they do, they are good at it. I do talk with these people, ask them about tickets(i can see their tickets in our CRM) from time to time.

    Our customers are mostly large orgs with their own dedicated IT teams, though the equipment installers may be 3rd party "bench people" as Scott calls them. Quite a number of our customers have no clue about networking, how to setup routes or even set ip addresses. It is quite astonishing. So i can see why Sage would take the position they have. Though they should probably modify it to say they only support the application and wont help people who cant setup vm networking the right way.


  • Service Provider

    @momurda said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    So i can see why Sage would take the position they have. Though they should probably modify it to say they only support the application and wont help people who cant setup vm networking the right way.

    Yes, there is a HUGE gap between "we only support what we make" and "we only support it when used improperly." The logic that their customers aren't able to do their jobs doesn't make sense because it doesn't matter.

    They DO support an idiotic setup where the installation is physical. Since this implies that they must support "everything" from the cabling to the networking to the OS and more in this mode given that the logic for avoiding proper installs is that they don't want to have to support all of that stuff. This only makes sense if they support it otherwise - which is crazy and we know isn't true.

    So I don't see it as an excuse at all. Nothing that they said logically leads to what they have done. They HAVE to support some configuration, they could have chosen an acceptable, business class one. Instead they chose exclusively one that has more problems and isn't appropriate. They haven't solved any problem on their end in terms of supporting customers. The only two logical answers I see as possibilities is that they are incompetent and don't realize just how not business ready their product is or this is just a setup for the blame game so that they can accuse any valid customer of not doing things in the supported way.

    At best it is a setup. That's a bad situation as the best case scenario.


  • Service Provider

    @momurda said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    I have to say, working at a place that does have to support devices we make, they have a point, somewhat.

    I would say the opposite. If they didn't want to support things that are not their problem, dictating how to set up the system undermines that. Had they allowed the customers to do anything that makes sense for them and only support the app, then that would have provided the desired outcome in that case.


  • Service Provider

    Sage has been a joke for years. Old news, anyone whose ever dealt with them knows this in and out.


  • Service Provider

    @Breffni-Potter said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Sage has been a joke for years. Old news, anyone whose ever dealt with them knows this in and out.

    I feel like they were considered pretty silly back around 2000 when we decided not to look at them further. Always makes me wonder... what process leads companies to have bought into software like this in the first place?


  • Service Provider

    Pick one:

    Accountants who only know one software package
    Accountants who are mostly resistant to change/new ways
    Accountants who are risk averse/narrow focused
    Accountants who get a commission from Sage for recommending it to their clients
    Accountants who say "It is the software everybody uses"

    And this is why I know how to do my own books.


  • Service Provider

    @Breffni-Potter said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Accountants who are risk averse/narrow focused

    More like risk confused. Risk aversion would get them onto an enterprise platform and trusting their business and tech advisers immediately. Using non-production, unsupported products is "embracing risk", nearly to the point of "for the fun of it."


  • Service Provider

    @Breffni-Potter said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Accountants who get a commission from Sage for recommending it to their clients

    Yeah... the old vendor advice problem.


  • Service Provider

    @scottalanmiller said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    @Breffni-Potter said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Accountants who are risk averse/narrow focused

    More like risk confused. Risk aversion would get....

    ...Them to advise their clients to invest wisely in growing their business rather than stagnating in a turtle shell protection mode.

    That annoys me more than the choice of software when I see that happening.


  • Vendor

    @EddieJennings said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    Officially tested in QA
    Support personnel trained on its use

    My perspective (Disclaimer I work for a software company and deal with engineering and PM for support statements almost daily).

    Once you commit to support something your on the hook to isolate all faults, and jointly work with the other parties involved until it's fixed.

    As one example we certified a RAID controller for use with our platform. That raid controller had a bug. Was it our code's problem? No. Did customers call us and blame us and expect us to drive a solution? Sure.

    We used our engineers and our joint support agreement with said hardware vendor to work for weeks around the clock (engineering time isn't cheap) and drive a solution. If you add up all the GSS hours, engineering hours, and project management hours spent dealing with lifecycle for a single raid controller vendor it has cost us millions I'm sure in 2016.

    Sage is saying that they don't run Hyper-V in QA for this app. (Running Hyper-V would include not just running Hyper-V on a box and calling it good, but regression testing against Service Packs, Hyper-V guest tools updates, and typically N-1 releases of the major product so they would need 2012R2 tested as well as 2016. For all these variations they would need to dedicated half a dozen servers at a minimum. They would need to extend their automation tools that are doing QE deployments to work with Hyper-V. Considering I've seen dozens of Cloud Management and orchestration products not support Hyper-V. If they don't have a cloud management product in place then they might have to write raw API and PowerCLI calls to do the orchisration for the testing on Hyper-V and KVM and Xen and other platforms. The could easily require hiring 1-2 more FTE's just to much with this and maintaining it.

    Sage has a lot of products like this with relatively small market share. Given the choice of them spending millions on testing and providing a support statement for Hyper-V/Xen/KVM and shifting engineering resources to QE and escalation for these platforms, I suspect most of their customers would be annoyed if their roadmap was killed just to maintain steady sate for these other platforms.

    I guess what I'm getting at here is that Issuing a support statement is a INCREDIBLY not free thing to do.

    I worked with Sage in the past to deploy their stuff on VMware. Once I told them what I was doing and what type of storage etc I was deploying they generally said "yah that sounds fine"

    Here is an example of their support statement on Virtualization.

    https://support.na.sage.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=54620&sliceId=1


  • Service Provider

    @John-Nicholson but they choose to test on physical. They could have picked one virtual to use instead. Your theory only works if what they did test was an acceptable production scenario.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    @John-Nicholson but they choose to test on physical. They could have picked one virtual to use instead. Your theory only works if what they did test was an acceptable production scenario.

    Exactly. Nobody runs software on physical computers anymore, and haven't for a very long time.

    They may as well be supporting Windows Server 2000 and 2003 if they are testing only physical servers.

    They aren't supporting their software in production scenarios, because nobody runs software on physical servers in production. So when they are ready to make their software production-ready, it will be the other way around.


  • Service Provider

    @Tim_G said in Sage 50 Quantum in Hyper-V VM:

    So when they are ready to make their software production-ready, it will be the other way around.

    Exactly. Like if they ONLY supported VMware or ONLY supported Hyper-V or ONLY supported Windows we'd understand. Those are all potential production ways to run software. But a physical deployment? This means that they've never tested and don't support ANY production environment.

    There is a big gap between having "one tested environment for production" and "not tested or supported for production."

    Exact same reason we dropped FogBugz. They only supported non-production platforms.


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