O365 and backups



  • Good morning all - it's been a while. How is everyone over in ML land?

    OK onto my question.

    Backups of O365. Scott has told all of us about his horrible personal experiences with his accounts, but there seems to be a lot more involved there than simply MS f'ed up and broke his accounts. That said, what does everyone do to ensure data continuity of their O365 stored data? Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?



  • @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.



  • They replicate the data to different spaces geographically, but those are not resting backups of your data. They are just living replicas of the same data.

    There are 2 ways that I am able to recover emails and both are done with Veeam.

    1. Endpoint recovery - You can recover the pst files from the endpoint backup and recover copy of the emails from the backup.

    2. O365 Backup Tool - Veeam has released an O365 backup tool in version 9.5 that will pull down your data to one of your repositories to a resting backup from O365. I haven't had experience with it, but, from what I am reading, that is the idea that I am getting from it.

    There maybe other ways, not using Veeam that might be better, but I am not aware of them.



  • I've been playing with Backupify. Works pretty nicely.

    I think there is a pretty good argument to @scottalanmiller's case of not needing backups. Because under what circumstance would you need them?

    It's really a small percentage of things that could happen to cause you to lose your data if the system is set up right. Is it worth it? I think that's a case-by-case answer.



  • @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.

    So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.



  • @BRRABill said in O365 and backups:

    I've been playing with Backupify. Works pretty nicely.

    I think there is a pretty good argument to @scottalanmiller's case of not needing backups. Because under what circumstance would you need them?

    It's really a small percentage of things that could happen to cause you to lose your data if the system is set up right. Is it worth it? I think that's a case-by-case answer.

    Setup correctly - wow - that's a bag of snakes statement!

    I know Sharepoint has the ability to show old versions - though I don't know if it's one by default. What about things that are synced via ODfB? Do they have versioning as well? If not, they easily suffer from Cryptoware problems if using the sync client.

    I know that Exchange also has a default setup of not purgingitems for days or even weeks after being deleted by a user, and should be recoverable from (for a lack of the correct term) the extended recycle bin.



  • @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.

    So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.

    Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.



  • @scottalanmiller said

    Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.

    But your contention is usually there shouldn't be an issue with the safeguards in place, correct?

    (Though I am paranoid and would still want a backup.)



  • Anybody tried UpSafe?



  • @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    You use the tools built into the application to recover.

    To recover a deleted email, you right click on the deleted items and go into recover deleted items.
    0_1492792515398_upload-10b7eae2-7b58-4860-ba03-aba09b9e06bf

    To recover something deleted in ODfB or SharePoint, you go into the online recycle bin.
    0_1492792753582_upload-2e268694-1531-48ad-8c60-fb5c1ace1614

    Or the Second Stage Recycle bin.
    0_1492792782550_upload-4e333c24-c1f4-48f3-bd0f-a88ab6c4fcf6



  • All of you are not answering the question that @Dashrender posed. he asked about recovering user deleted stuff. that is all built into the platform.

    Granted he titled the topic different than his actual question.



  • @JaredBusch said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    You use the tools built into the application to recover.

    To recover a deleted email, you right click on the deleted items and go into recover deleted items.
    0_1492792515398_upload-10b7eae2-7b58-4860-ba03-aba09b9e06bf

    To recover something deleted in ODfB or SharePoint, you go into the online recycle bin.
    0_1492792753582_upload-2e268694-1531-48ad-8c60-fb5c1ace1614

    Or the Second Stage Recycle bin.
    0_1492792782550_upload-4e333c24-c1f4-48f3-bd0f-a88ab6c4fcf6

    Unless the user tries really hard to delete something you will be able to recover it. If you are worried about this being done maliciously you can setup legal retention periods for emails as well.



  • @JaredBusch said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    You use the tools built into the application to recover.

    To recover a deleted email, you right click on the deleted items and go into recover deleted items.
    0_1492792515398_upload-10b7eae2-7b58-4860-ba03-aba09b9e06bf

    To recover something deleted in ODfB or SharePoint, you go into the online recycle bin.
    0_1492792753582_upload-2e268694-1531-48ad-8c60-fb5c1ace1614

    Or the Second Stage Recycle bin.
    0_1492792782550_upload-4e333c24-c1f4-48f3-bd0f-a88ab6c4fcf6

    JB - have you done this with ODfB sync'ed things as well?



  • @coliver said

    Unless the user tries really hard to delete something you will be able to recover it. If you are worried about this being done maliciously you can setup legal retention periods for emails as well.

    That was always one of my concerns ... that someone would get the Admin credentials and destroy everything.

    Of course, that can happen to any server right now, but a regular server is easier to back up.



  • @BRRABill said in O365 and backups:

    @coliver said

    Unless the user tries really hard to delete something you will be able to recover it. If you are worried about this being done maliciously you can setup legal retention periods for emails as well.

    That was always one of my concerns ... that someone would get the Admin credentials and destroy everything.

    Of course, that can happen to any server right now, but a regular server is easier to back up.

    What if they got into your backup system and destroyed everything?



  • @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    @JaredBusch said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    You use the tools built into the application to recover.

    To recover a deleted email, you right click on the deleted items and go into recover deleted items.
    0_1492792515398_upload-10b7eae2-7b58-4860-ba03-aba09b9e06bf

    To recover something deleted in ODfB or SharePoint, you go into the online recycle bin.
    0_1492792753582_upload-2e268694-1531-48ad-8c60-fb5c1ace1614

    Or the Second Stage Recycle bin.
    0_1492792782550_upload-4e333c24-c1f4-48f3-bd0f-a88ab6c4fcf6

    JB - have you done this with ODfB sync'ed things as well?

    I just showed you the ODfB screen in that port you quoted.



  • @BRRABill said in O365 and backups:

    @coliver said

    Unless the user tries really hard to delete something you will be able to recover it. If you are worried about this being done maliciously you can setup legal retention periods for emails as well.

    That was always one of my concerns ... that someone would get the Admin credentials and destroy everything.

    Of course, that can happen to any server right now, but a regular server is easier to back up.

    Grant anyone admin access (intentional or not) and you always lose. So that is not relevant.



  • @scottalanmiller said

    What if they got into your backup system and destroyed everything?

    Well then you'd have some issues.

    Hopefully you have offsite backup they can't access.



  • Security rules... make someone an admin and you have to trust them.



  • I'm exploring both sides to O365 backup.

    I don't want to say yes or no to O365 backup software like Veeam Backup for O365 (which someone seen an Ad for) until I have enough information in all aspects to make an educated decision for recommendation.

    Is it really needed? Is it worth the cost in the unlikelihood MS really messes up so bad nothing is restorable?

    If something is deleted, there's like 2 or 3 levels of recycle bins and such on O365. Emails give deleted folder plus deleted folder deletion recovery, and another level from IMAPI or whatever. With SharePoint and OneDrive, there's also multiple levels and additional features like Ransomware Protection and such.

    You have to really want something to go away to be unable to get it back.

    We've had O365 for many years now, and never needed a backup. Users have deleted stuff, we've gotten it back. Worst case is we talk to MS support on the phone for 20 minutes, and end up getting it back via some means like imapi or whatever it is.

    When someone leaves, we back up their O365 account via Exchange Admin, and store it for a while.



  • @obsolesce like many things in IT, the answer might be more likely to be about politics than about business.



  • @dashrender I use Veeam Backup for Office 365. Works flawlessly and successfully tested recovery capabilities. They offer a full version for 15 users or less for free. More than 15 and licensing is very reasonable.



  • @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.

    So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.

    Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.

    MS states this pretty clearly on their Terms page. Section 6 in fact.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/servicesagreement/



  • @nashbrydges said in O365 and backups:

    @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @Dashrender said in O365 and backups:

    Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?

    Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.

    So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.

    Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.

    MS states this pretty clearly on their Terms page. Section 6 in fact.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/servicesagreement/

    But there are several mechanisms to protect against your failure, too. It's not devoid of those.



  • I suppose there should be a backup of data. I'm thinking that just because it's not hosted on-prem, doesn't mean it shouldn't be backed up. If we had our own on-prem Exchange/Sharepoint/Onedrive servers, they'd definitely be backed up, regardless of safety nets (recycle bins).

    Perhaps we'll never need the backups, or maybe MS screws up one day that there is a total loss of a user(s) account with data. Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.



  • @obsolesce said in O365 and backups:

    Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.

    Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.

    And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.

    Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.

    We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.



  • @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @obsolesce said in O365 and backups:

    Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.

    Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.

    And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.

    Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.

    We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.

    I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?

    I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it. What they have is already enough via all their current protection tiers. But if something happens at the account level leaving those tiers inaccessible or lost, then the backup will be the only way to get it back.



  • @obsolesce said in O365 and backups:

    @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    @obsolesce said in O365 and backups:

    Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.

    Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.

    And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.

    Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.

    We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.

    I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?

    In theory, depending on the service. But I doubt it would be worth it too often. Going that route, likely some better way for the rare high profile data.



  • @obsolesce said in O365 and backups:

    I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it.

    Can't guarantee it if you host yourself, or if you add a backup. Guarantees don't exist. All we do is increase the reliability level. MS already has backups for that scenario, so you are getting into a backup of a backup range, not a backup or no backup one.



  • @scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:

    MS already has backups for that scenario

    You know this for sure?

    Didn't you experience permanent data loss with some O365 accounts do to licensing screw-up on their part, where a backup would have been nice?


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