How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education
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@JaredBusch said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
A lot of the certs are not vendor neutral as well. If I got my CCNA I wouldn't have used it until now for instance and we're replacing our cisco switches in a month or two anyway.
While you are right about that, I think that the technical certs that are more than just "entry level" type certifications will teach you concepts that directly translate to other vendors.
I actually did get my CCNA... and used it to work on a grand total of two Cisco switches that were retired about 6 months after I started that job, lol. But the concepts have enabled me to do a lot more than just cisco gear.
When going from one vendor to the next, it is just a matter of matching up terminology and looking up the commands for what you want to do.
Edit: I must emphasize that it is important to know and understand the concepts well!
Correct. If you actually learn the material, it will generally apply across the board with only minor syntax differences.
L3 routing works the same on any manufacturers gear. They may do a few special things with commands or use their own syntax, but if you understand L3, you can work on anything.
Especially the CCNA. As you move up the certs chart, it becomes more vendor specific. Towards the bottom it is more general.
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@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller It was in my area. This was the only school that taught this that was close enough for most people here. Luckily the local community college started hiring IT teachers and have courses now. For years they didn't though.
Sure, but just because the schools wheren't there didn't prevent people from buying books like Scott and I did. No formal schooling for either of us, at least not at the start.
Exactly. It was scouring Borders (remember them?) and finding books that would explain topics.
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@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
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@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller It was in my area. This was the only school that taught this that was close enough for most people here. Luckily the local community college started hiring IT teachers and have courses now. For years they didn't though.
Sure, but just because the schools wheren't there didn't prevent people from buying books like Scott and I did. No formal schooling for either of us, at least not at the start.
Exactly. It was scouring Borders (remember them?) and finding books that would explain topics.
My wife hated borders because I tended to go there for 2-3 hours and read. While she's an avid reader - 4+ books a week (I do less than one a month, way less), she didn't like reading there I guess.
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@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
do you get notices when you are muted?
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@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
do you get notices when you are muted?
Yes, but not who is muting. Also, not always even what thread.
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@JaredBusch said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
do you get notices when you are muted?
Yes, but not who is muting. Also, not always even what thread.
wow, that notification seems pointless.
other than just giving you the bird. -
@JaredBusch said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
do you get notices when you are muted?
Yes, but not who is muting. Also, not always even what thread.
The last time that I was muted, but only the last time, it told me what thread. That's how I knew it was the FreeNAS one.
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Being the new IT guy, I'll try and paint a picture for you about how these knowledge gaps happen, or at least my story.
I attended college at School of Informatics and Computing, with a degree path in "New Media" as they call it. My education consisted of 3-D Animation/Modeling using several programs but with a strong emphasis on Maya. I also took some classes in Web Development (CSS, XHTML). My education stopped there as far as computers go. But I'm comfortable around computers, and I have been ever since I got my first one.
I took a job at a quasi-military academy, working with "at-risk" youth. My first job was simply as Cadre (something like a Drill Sergeant). After about a year, they had an opening for "entry-level" assistant for the MIS department (we're the IT for the organization). I was only TDA'd (Temporary Duty Assignment) initially, but I liked it so much, I decide to interview to keep it and get paid for it. My two years of computer related studies qualified me for the position and I got it.
I honestly came into the job knowing that I knew nothing about most of it, but was confident that I could learn everything I needed. We have a pretty broad range of responsibilities here in my department compared to what I been reading about other IT departments. Some things I do well already, and others I'm working out, but carefully as I do not want to stretch myself too thin.
When I first started, did I know what a Domain Controller was? Not a clue. Active Directory? What's that!? Hell, I even had to learn how to Windows+PauseBreak when my boss told me to add a computer to the network. On the flip side of that, my boss can't code a webpage to save his life. That's where I come in. The rest is time/experience. I feel that knowledge gaps like this aren't as relevant as having the resources to bridge those gaps. I mean, we're supposed to be the best at Googling right? It's in our nature to find solutions. That's the only relevant skill I'm seeing.
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@G-I-Jones said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
I feel that knowledge gaps like this aren't as relevant as having the resources to bridge those gaps. I mean, we're supposed to be the best at Googling right? It's in our nature to find solutions. That's the only relevant skill I'm seeing.
I think that that is specifically where those gaps might come from. IT can't be done by Googling. Sure, trivial things like "what is a domain controller" can be, but what triggers you to know that you need to Google that? IT requires, IMHO, a load of "baseline" knowledge, far more than most fields, so that things like Googling answers can be applied on top of that.
Like I Google the syntax for a command, but not the concept behind the command or which command to run. If I had to pick Google or "good books", good books I'd say are twice as important or more for IT. Google helps me know which button to push, but books and more traditional, structured learning, taught me what buttons to acquire.
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Can you define for me, what you consider "baseline" knowledge? It sounds to me like you're referring to common sense.
I'm having a bit of trouble seeing your point in the examples you've given. I'm super open to understanding this though, could you elaborate a little more please?I feel like I've read "baseline" knowledge somewhere else on this forum or another, is that a post already?
Forgive me if it is. -
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
If I had to pick Google or "good books", good books I'd say are twice as important or more for IT. Google helps me know which button to push, but books and more traditional, structured learning, taught me what buttons to acquire.
While I agree that good books can be hugely helpful! But don't you think peers and mentors should appear in that list? Or do you consider them to fall under traditional learning?
For me... The books I read showed me a button or two and pointed me at other buttons that may be helpful. My peers and Google taught me how to acquire buttons for anything I want to find... and traditional learning taught me the concepts about the buttons that I may not have already understood.
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@G-I-Jones said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Can you define for me, what you consider "baseline" knowledge? It sounds to me like you're referring to common sense.
I'm having a bit of trouble seeing your point in the examples you've given. I'm super open to understanding this though, could you elaborate a little more please?I feel like I've read "baseline" knowledge somewhere else on this forum or another, is that a post already?
Forgive me if it is.Well hopefully anyone has common sense. LOL. But no, common sense and baseline knowledge are unrelated. I mean having both gives you way more power than either alone, of course. One augments the other.
Let's give an example... RAID levels should be baseline knowledge. Or how TCP/IP addressing works. Or what the two main families of operating systems are and what the big three desktops are, or the big three or four server OSes. Just as examples.
There is a thread, I'll dig it up.
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@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
While I agree that good books can be hugely helpful! But don't you think peers and mentors should appear in that list? Or do you consider them to fall under traditional learning?
Oh sure, they are another traditional form. However, they are a dangerous one. Due ot the IT Bubble effect, loads of mentors can be really, really dangerous and if you don't have good baseline knowledge you can easily get a mentor that isn't in a position to be a mentor at all, or even a peer. THat's how the 1998 Problem came about (I think), loads of unqualified mentors teaching by rote a new generation of non-baselined interns with totally incorrect, outdated or poorly relayed "knowledge."
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Here is a thread where I am attempting to assemble a baseline:
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And here is a thread where I am trying to get people to assemble a baseline definition from which to make the former.
https://mangolassi.it/topic/12316/of-what-should-baseline-it-education-consist
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I started learning when I was middle school aged back in the early 80s. I learned DOS because I was fascinated with computers, that is all my computer had on it. I had to make boot discs and learn how to manage the memory if I wanted to play games, ahh Star Control I and II, those where the days! Back in the 80s and 90s to do cool stuff you had to learn how the computer worked, I remember running my BBS system. All before you had Google or the internet. Now I think all we have are people that know how to push GUI buttons. They don't understand what that button really is doing. I don't really program that much but I find bugs all the time and often it is because someone didn't understand how the computer really works. I took a break from computers when I was in law enforcement for several years and I was scared when I went to change careers and actually get into IT because it had been so long for me just even away from it as a hobby. After getting in the field I wasn't worried at all. It seems like they don't teach the basics.
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@PenguinWrangler I did this as well in early 90s. Once i skipped school and dialed into a bbs so i could get shareware versions of a bunch of games. Phone bill was like 350 that month. That was a paddlin.
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@PenguinWrangler said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
It seems like they don't teach the basics.
They don't. No schools are, that's for sure. And almost no mentors are. I can't believe how much of what I explain on SW day in and day out is just "baseline" stuff that was expected from any entry level IT guy in the mid-1990s. Sure I've updated some licensing prices and a few vendors have changed, but all the basics are still the basics. The "hot new tech" that so many people are excited to learn... we were doing in the 1990s at home. I'm not sure how so much baseline is missed today, but it is often huge. And a little baseline goes a long way.
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It's like RAID, just as an example. One hour of learning "what RAID is, what parity is and what mirroring is" combined with a trivial amount of "these are the naming conventions" is all you need to basically know everything that there is to know about safety, speed, capacity, cost, etc. Yet it takes thousands of threads covering that topic and people get it ass backwards every day. You can Google it till the cows come home but without the baseline, it is really hard to know which information is right, relevant, up to date, or applicable for the given situation (e.g. RAID 5 is the devil!!! But only from 2009 on, and only with Winchester disks and SSDs are fine and... and.... )
