If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Maybe what Scott's saying is that the degree doesn't matter because in reality there are no jobs to be had. So having a degree, not having a degree, really doesn't matter because there are no jobs.
Now that I can understand, to an extent. Though, looking at Job Search sites there isn't much of a shortage...
Also, using this as a primary evidence. Go onto dice.com, indeed.com, monster.com, and search for IT jobs. Tell me how many come up as not needing a degree.
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real IT jobs shouldn't require relocation - they don't require you to access a DC, they simply require you to access the internet.
Of course, just like the degree requirement, many companies feel the need to have their employees under foot, for whatever logic they bring to that table.
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@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
I had actually planned to have an article out about why everyone feels that lacking degrees are holding them back and why you can't determine that from that evidence. But then we had the funeral to get to. I'll have this out soon, though. It's really important to understand why lacking a degree will almost certainly make it feel that way when it is not true.
I agree it may always feel that way, regardless. However, it also seems to be true
This might be a good read on the topic- http://burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/Moving_the_Goalposts.pdf
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
I had actually planned to have an article out about why everyone feels that lacking degrees are holding them back and why you can't determine that from that evidence. But then we had the funeral to get to. I'll have this out soon, though. It's really important to understand why lacking a degree will almost certainly make it feel that way when it is not true.
I agree it may always feel that way, regardless. However, it also seems to be true
This might be a good read on the topic- http://burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/Moving_the_Goalposts.pdf
In the key findings portion of that document:
In other occupations, such as entry level IT help desk
positions, the skill sets indicated in job
postings don’t include skills typically taught at the bachelor’s level, and there is little difference in skill
requirements for jobs requiring a college degree from those that do not. Yet the preference for a
bachelor’s degree has increased. This suggests that employers may be relying on a B.A. as a broad
recruitment filter that may or may not correspond to specific capabilities needed to do the job. -
@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Even if it were free, it's not likely worth it. The time alone normally hurts you too much. And the further you are from 17, the less good it does.
Let me ask you a base question- Do you agree with the concept of certs?
Certs as certs, yes. Certs as a double dip to buy a fake degree, no.
The entire concept is using tests and prior knowledge and experience to essentially get a degree that you already knew the material about. Not really time invested. "Fake Degree" will require a bit more explanation. Fake to you, or the employer? Fake to you, hell yeah. To me college itself is an ignorant endeavor that I don't even want to consider. My degree would be fake to me even if I went through traditional college, because the process is fundamentally flawed. Fake to the employer? A degree from a regionally accredited college? Seems to me, maybe not.
Yes, but certs don't qualify for that. That's double dipping. The type of material covered by certs doesn't qualify for a legitimate degree. So if they accept certs as a quick "short circuit" to the degree, the degree has simply been bypassed and is, therefore, fake. It's fake as in it is not a legitimate college / university degree and any college that does this (like WGU) is famously known for being on the "black list" where if a good employer sees it on your resume, straight to the bin you go. If you just want to "buy a degree" there are easier ways. Accredited means literally nothing unless you are going for government jobs. It's VERY fake to an employer. Are you not aware of the WGU, University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT problems?
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The point on this is actually obtaining a degree with very little time and money invested due to, hell, already knowing enough about the majority of what they have to teach to be able to pass a test on it.
Your attempt, if it worked, would make it a black list degree. Many people in hiring positions would consider calling yourself degrees to border on dishonest. Any degree that only requires cert knowledge is generally considered a "bought" degree. Schools that only exist to make money and not to educate. So you risk getting a degree that will literally make you unemployable. If you get a degree, you need to make sure that the degree itself is never worse than neutral.
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2016/10/choosing-a-university-for-it-education/
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
Yes. I've been told 'No' to jobs I qualified for based on their requirements posted to a "T", and have actually gotten automatic replies from some of them. Either that, or their HR was working late and looked at my resume and scoffed anyway.
That means nothing. What you are told never tells you why you were turned down. You tell people that they were turned down based on the degree requirements because they will just go away, like you did, and believe that that is why. It stops people suing for discrimination and makes it sound "kind" instead of telling them that they had better candidates or didn't like them for some other reason. That you have been told "no" based on the degree tells you absolutely nothing. That might be their reason, but if so, they think very, very little of themselves and you have to wonder, why would you want to have worked for them anyway - unless you were super desperate, which you are not.
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@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The need for a degree is due to the HR machine, would that HR machine look at the school in question and filter you out automatically?
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
how can you say that? Did you work in the HR departments of all of hte companies you've worked for?
My friend who works for that company I talk about all the time - their HR department definitely filters - he had to go to HR and demand that they stop because he wasn't getting any candidates for the job. They are a fortune 1000 company - it does happen.
So in the one example where you knew it happened.... it was stopped as soon as they found out. If adding that stops you from getting any candidates, then we can pretty safely assume that they aren't doing that. Does someone? Sure. Does anyone we really know? I know that every HR department I've ever worked at does not filter because the nature of me working there proves it since any degree filter would rule me out. And yes, I've been a hiring manager most places I've worked and know that not only is it not filtered, it also didn't even get looked on favourably in those cases.
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller , to me this implies that you limit yourself because you feel like "Well, I've already learned everything I need to to get my dream job. I don't need to learn anything else." Currently, even with this thread, I see a degree as a very expensive piece of paper that does me nothing (This is the way I see anything considered public education overall.) It's not that I intend to learn with a degree. More of ensure that it is not hindering me from progressing.
No, exactly the opposite. College is the opponent of learning. It's a barrier to education. Something that you trade off taking time to learn things in order to spend time and money pursuing the politics of getting a piece of paper. If you think that college involves any significant amount of learning compared to what you should be learning on your own with the same time resources then you are learning on your own at a pace far, far below when I and most people want to hire. College is a cost of lost opportunity specifically around learning and experience.
My point is that if you want to progress, you do so, on average, best without a degree. Getting a degree takes time and money, that normally could get you more progress working in some other way. You are believing that college is holding you back, what I'm suggesting is that it is not and if you spend time and money on it that it will hold you back more compared to other things that you could do with less time and less money.
In order to make college sound reasonable, most people compare it to taking the same time and money and burning the money and drinking four years away. Of course college comes out looking decent when you do that. But that's not the reasonable alternative for someone looking for career advancement. Take a few years and $8,000 and get certs, build a home lab, do volunteer work and build a career. You will, on average, be years ahead of the college counterparts after they finish school.
And this doesn't just apply to IT, it does to pretty much any non-regulated field. For example, hotel management. If you go to college for hotel management you might get to manager just one year after getting your first job compared to two years for non-college grads. But the non-college grads can start four years earlier. So the college grad has one year of pay, one year of experience and makes manager while the high school grad has two years of entry level pay and three years of manager pay and five years of experience at the same point in their careers. That's a real world sample.
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@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@momurda said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
By putting limits on yourself (not wanting to move, etc) you are really hurting your job finding, and in the long run hurting your family. If there are no jobs in Shithole, Kentucky that pay well, move somewhere else that has high paying jobs.
Its like the people who live in flood deltas and have had their house destroyed multiple times, refuse to move because of sentimental reasons.But, the question is which is the bigger limit, college or not college. Statistics say that college is the limiter that you put on yourself by limiting your time to learn and build your career.
I completely understand this, but if you can't get past HR, who cares how many cool projects you've setup in a lab?
Because the HR blockade is a myth setup by people trying to justify why they didn't get hired at every job that they applied for. It does exist, but not in any large quantity and in no way that really affects people in the real world. Even if 80% of jobs actually did that, it would not be enough to strongly negatively impact hiring given the current college rates. But in reality, people struggle to identify any real world examples, let alone 80%. It happens, but it is relatively rare. And remember, quantity of available jobs isn't a useful goal. It feels useful, but it isn't. One good job makes up for unlimited crappy jobs that you can't get into.
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@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Maybe what Scott's saying is that the degree doesn't matter because in reality there are no jobs to be had. So having a degree, not having a degree, really doesn't matter because there are no jobs.
THis is mostly true. Everyone on both sides of the fence complains that there are no jobs. It's just that the degreed people know that they have degrees and can't use lacking one as an excuse. So they tell us that there are "no jobs". The people without degrees get to use their lack of degrees as an excuse (and the companies often use this too) and so do so, even though they don't get turned down any more often than their degreed counterparts. It's a believable thing that we tell each other to make ourselves feel better about not getting hired.
Finding a job in IT is a major undertaking whether you are entry level with a degree, entry level without a degree, advanced with a degree or advanced without a degree. No matter what level or education you are at, finding your next IT job is normally a huge challenge that takes months and hundreds of applications, most being instantly turned down.
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Maybe what Scott's saying is that the degree doesn't matter because in reality there are no jobs to be had. So having a degree, not having a degree, really doesn't matter because there are no jobs.
I would have to disagree with you on that. It depends on the area, obviously. Plenty in the Boston area. Hell, I've seen articles talking about a lack of candidates for IT jobs there.
They say that everywhere. But often it's huge layers of bad hiring practices and an unwillingness to pay necessary rates. Both sides have it true, companies often demand huge skill sets for low pay. But also while there are tons of IT folks out there, few have the in demand skill sets or are willing to change their skills sets to accommodate the market.
So often both are true, there are no jobs and yet there are no candidates. Because IT is a huge field and people don't hire "IT", they hire "SAP ONE Application developer with Python, five years of experience and eight years on Windows 2008."
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Son-of-Jor-El said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Maybe what Scott's saying is that the degree doesn't matter because in reality there are no jobs to be had. So having a degree, not having a degree, really doesn't matter because there are no jobs.
I would have to disagree with you on that. It depends on the area, obviously. Plenty in the Boston area. Hell, I've seen articles talking about a lack of candidates for IT jobs there.
I actually usually see general articles conveying a lack of candidates in IT jobs overall.
Yeah, it's tough because everyone wants to act like IT is one big pool, which it is not in the least. Overall, there are way fewer IT Pros than needed, but those out there rarely have the needed skill sets.
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
Maybe what Scott's saying is that the degree doesn't matter because in reality there are no jobs to be had. So having a degree, not having a degree, really doesn't matter because there are no jobs.
Now that I can understand, to an extent. Though, looking at Job Search sites there isn't much of a shortage...
Also, using this as a primary evidence. Go onto dice.com, indeed.com, monster.com, and search for IT jobs. Tell me how many come up as not needing a degree.
Again... useless. Everyone LISTS a degree. They list all kinds of crazy crap. Two big things that you are missing:
- 90% of the job listings on those sites aren't even for real jobs. They often have impossible requirements or senseless ones and respond to no one.
- 90% of jobs that list requiring a degree don't actually require one. That's standard boilerplate and everyone is supposed to know that they mean "or better". I know no one that lacks a degree that worries about those requirements, they "never" apply to people with the skills and experience.
These are talked about all the time. As a candidate any impression that you have of requiring a degree simply isn't true. I'm not saying that degrees are useless, I'm saying that "what you see" tells you nothing.
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@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@FiyaFly said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
I had actually planned to have an article out about why everyone feels that lacking degrees are holding them back and why you can't determine that from that evidence. But then we had the funeral to get to. I'll have this out soon, though. It's really important to understand why lacking a degree will almost certainly make it feel that way when it is not true.
I agree it may always feel that way, regardless. However, it also seems to be true
This might be a good read on the topic- http://burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/Moving_the_Goalposts.pdf
In the key findings portion of that document:
In other occupations, such as entry level IT help desk
positions, the skill sets indicated in job
postings don’t include skills typically taught at the bachelor’s level, and there is little difference in skill
requirements for jobs requiring a college degree from those that do not. Yet the preference for a
bachelor’s degree has increased. This suggests that employers may be relying on a B.A. as a broad
recruitment filter that may or may not correspond to specific capabilities needed to do the job.Preference for degrees increases as out of work, low pay candidates with degrees flood the field. This happened to nursing too. Unless you are looking for entry level, zero experience jobs this doesn't apply to you. ANd again, this is ridiculously misleading. WHy....
Because even a strong preference for degreed candidates doesn't change the fact that the degreed candidates are four years, and heavy debt, behind their undegreed counterparts. Sure, someone with four years of college is favoured over someone right out of high school. But that's not the comparison. The comparison has to be against high school + four years of learning on your own and whatever experience you can gather during that time.
You are repeating horrific marketing material that should be instantly identifiable as not valid points. You are being played on emotionally,
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Instead of feeling like you are seeing lots of things pointing to the value of college, you should be thinking wow, in order to sell me college people are willing to post some ridiculous points thinking that I would not catch on. Most of those articles aren't reasonable and indicate a clear attempt to mislead or that the authors are truly clueless and that should scare you a lot about college grads that this is the best promotional stuff that they can come up with. It's overly transparent that they are willing to say anything hoping that you don't think critically about what they have said.
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@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The need for a degree is due to the HR machine, would that HR machine look at the school in question and filter you out automatically?
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
It happened to me at a widely known venue in central London. This was not a low end role, this was a technical position. CV and application was submitted into an online machine after researching it, did exactly what we dread, keyword scored it and I never heard back.
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@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The need for a degree is due to the HR machine, would that HR machine look at the school in question and filter you out automatically?
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
It happened to me at a widely known venue in central London. This was not a low end role, this was a technical position. CV and application was submitted into an online machine after researching it, did exactly what we dread, keyword scored it and I never heard back.
Those things are so easy to bypass it's not even funny. That's all I'll say about it.
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@travisdh1 said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The need for a degree is due to the HR machine, would that HR machine look at the school in question and filter you out automatically?
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
It happened to me at a widely known venue in central London. This was not a low end role, this was a technical position. CV and application was submitted into an online machine after researching it, did exactly what we dread, keyword scored it and I never heard back.
Those things are so easy to bypass it's not even funny. That's all I'll say about it.
oh? do you know the magic keywords that bypass them? LOL
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@Dashrender said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@travisdh1 said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@scottalanmiller said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
@Breffni-Potter said in If you could get a Bachelor's Degree for under $8,000 in less than a year... would you?:
The need for a degree is due to the HR machine, would that HR machine look at the school in question and filter you out automatically?
This is something that people mention a lot and it definitely happens in the absolute lowest end jobs. But how often does it actually happen? I've never seen it in real life.
It happened to me at a widely known venue in central London. This was not a low end role, this was a technical position. CV and application was submitted into an online machine after researching it, did exactly what we dread, keyword scored it and I never heard back.
Those things are so easy to bypass it's not even funny. That's all I'll say about it.
oh? do you know the magic keywords that bypass them? LOL
Just look at what they're asking for... if that doesn't get you past the front gate then they don't know wtf anyway.
