Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
By all means you can believe what you want, but I am not an employee, nor a reseller, nor a developer, nor anything else.
I am a user and if someone asks me which car I like, well, I'll give them my honest opinion.
And if that is true, I and I'm sure everyone else really appreciate that opinion. But if we didn't share that opinion, if we had different needs, you pushed and pushed. Kopano doesn't meet our needs nor offer anything special for us. I can see why you like it, never said that I didn't. But our needs focus around production readiness and operational mindset where Zimbra shines and Kopano doesn't appear to even try, even in their commercial release. So if you call those features, which is reasonable, then ZImbra has key features that we need that Kopano lacks.
No one ever said that you should not run it, love it, use it, promote it, etc. That's all great. But if I didn't agree, if it didn't meet my needs, I was told to spend money and even questioning that was "arrogance." That's where we disconnected.
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As I said I never criticised with you not choosing Zimbra, there are many products.
I do instead disagree with you entirely on the community not being helpful and the production readiness of the product.
I think your approach to the community was wrong and perhaps that's why you did not receive the information you needed.
Every community is different and perhaps the approach to each of them has to be different.
As I said I run it in production and I have no downtime more than Microsoft does or whatever. And I am not even on their official releases but on the nightly builds.
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think your approach to the community was wrong and perhaps that's why you did not receive the information you needed.
I asked about this. In what way was it wrong? I've asked several people and no one has had any insight into anything even slightly wrong with my original posts. They were polite, informative, asked straight forward questions... but were met with defensiveness and rudeness. Why? What did I do wrong? I asked you for this earlier but got no response. What part of posting the problems that we ran into was wrong?
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
That's fine. But that wasn't an issue on their community, that was never mentioned.
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I am not sure there was a general point, just you came across as unfriendly and arrogant.
Of course you may not have intended to, but that's how you came across.
In that situation Patrick (who I worked out is a community user too as he doesn't belong to the Kopano group) replied in an unfriendly way and everything got out of control.
Anyway let's leave it as it is. It looks like you found the right product for you.
For which one is better, the question remains as we do have diverging opinions.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I am not sure there was a general point, just you came across as unfriendly and arrogant.
Of course you may not have intended to, but that's how you came across.
But how, look....
Let me quote...
"Ubuntu 16.10 is the only currently, fully supported version of Ubuntu (LTS is not full support nor current) and we are getting these erros:"
Screen shot
"16.10 has libicu57 and the packages as you see in the screenshot won't install because of unmet dependencies :("
And then I pointed out that they were not even my words but that I was posting for someone else. Which of these words was arrogant or unfriendly? Not one word about Kopano or the community except for the library mention. Nothing. Just general information to explain why I was testing this install (info right from Ubuntu - not my opinion, if there is an objection to Ubuntu they should not take it up with me, I don't make the rules.) I really want to know, how anyone could see anything there as arrogant or unfriendly.
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Sometimes it's just a feeling, you read a series of postings and you get the impression that's arrogant.
Or perhaps it just got out of hand, who knows. Or perhaps just some people cannot click or whatever.
It just started badly and ended up badly, no hard feelings.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
In that situation Patrick (who I worked out is a community user too as he doesn't belong to the Kopano group) replied in an unfriendly way and everything got out of control.
Yes, and the vendor reps did not step in as they should have if he was not representing the community. It's not an open community but a vendor one. So he's voicing things on their behalf, which is a problem. They don't make it clear anywhere that I saw who is and is not official, and when someone official did show up (I'm only assuming from his tag, those can be community generated) he didn't in any way back Patrick off from his representation.
But my point is that I was absolutely professional at the beginning. Totally, I can't see one word out of place. If Patrick, or anyone, took exception to what I posted ... that seems to be the issue.
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All I can say is that in the past I did find missing features (not builds, but small things in the UI and so on) and reported them back and all I received back was prompt help and assistance.
I can only speak from my own experience.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Sometimes it's just a feeling, you read a series of postings and you get the impression that's arrogant.
Here are the other posts that I led off with in the community. Assuming someone had read these all together (I think Patrick had responded before the CentOS one was up, even) this is what together is seen as arrogant? Please, and I mean this, take a moment to read these four posts. Don't assume anything, just read them. What should I have done differently? Aside from simply not having gone to the community for help at all, how could I have improved? Read them honestly, I've gone back several times, I see nothing that could be construed as arrogant here.
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I think by now I am too biased to be able to offer an impartial view on this. So probably not the best person to ask to.
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I provided all the info on the technical issues. I explained why we were testing these specifically. I explained that we already had an install up and running on 16.04. I stated that I'd post the technical details individually.
I'm not sure how I could pussy foot around any more than I did.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think by now I am too biased to be able to offer an impartial view on this. So probably not the best person to ask to.
I think that the community led off that way. The bias came through with the very first responses. Maybe not bias, maybe defensiveness? But trust me, no arrogance in those posts. Am I arrogant? Sure, I'll buy that. Not sure why, but everyone says it, so it must be true. But look at those posts, it's not in them. That bias came from somewhere else. The community had it before I got there.
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perhaps you should just have waited for someone to come back with a technical answer.
Not sure, anyway, everyone is happy, including me as my email still works.
So please do have a good evening.
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Perhaps it was just a bad conversation to start with. Who to blame? Who knows, sometimes things between husband and wife go wrongly and who is too blame? who knows.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
perhaps you should just have waited for someone to come back with a technical answer.
Yeah, blame the victim. I was polite, I was attacked. I show why it wasn't fair to attack me, I get blamed as arrogant. I show why I wasn't arrogant, I should have let people post and not respond that they had the wrong idea.
I see the trend, no matter what I do, it's my fault. Same run around about the distros. I run CentOS, I should have used Ubuntu, use Ubuntu, I should have run CentOS. Both fail, oh, should run Debian. Always my fault and some silly excuse.
First it was my fault for not posting in the community. Then I'm arrogant for having done it and daring to ask a question. Then I shouldn't have responded. And, wait for it, I just shouldn't have posted if I was going to dare ask a question.
Where does it end? I feel like I was "at fault" the moment that I tried to give Kopano a chance and something went wrong. Anything that I've ever said about it that wasn't praise was met with something wrong about me or wrong about what I wanted or wrong about where I asked it. And if I change to do the thing that I was told to do, I was wrong to do that.
It's a no win here. There is no action I can take, no advice I can follow that doesn't get me called arrogant, rude and wrong. And there never was.
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ok so the community was arrogant and you were fine
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Not sure, anyway, everyone is happy, including me as my email still works.
Are they? We both know that some people have tried it and walked away. The community only found out because you asked us to tell them and you see why we dont' normally do that, what a wasted effort that was. The community is tiny, I mean seriously tiny. There aren't enough people in that community to gauge if it is working or not. There simply aren't enough users. Given that the majority of people for whom an install does not work will just walk away and never report it, you can pretty safely assume that with that few people who have reported it working that there are likely a lot of people for whom it is not working . What you can't assume is that "it's working for everyone". We know that isn't true factually, and statistically it would suggest that the failure rate is likely pretty high.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
ok so the community was arrogant and you were fine
I've spend my entire day being attacked at this point, all for trying to be helpful. Put yourself in my shoes.
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Look, I have no idea how many customers Kopano/Zarafa has how many community users they have and how many employees they have.
I have honestly not the tiniest idea about this.
When you asked the question which software to run I gave you my honest opinion.
You then told me it wasn't working (it does for me but who knows perhaps my installation is different) I told you to go to the forums or email support as I do when I have a problem.
The community is tiny huge, medium? I have no idea.
The product works for me, when I have questions I get helped, quite frankly, that's all I care.
If you prefer another product because you think is bigger, more stable, whatever? That's fine too!
As I said I (personally) cannot use anything else other than Kopano.
How many bugs did I find in the last year? Exactly one of which is so tiny that nobody ever noticed.
For me this is stable enough.
