This Is Who Is Teaching College
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@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Which if it didn't cost so much money to become a doctor (not talking about reducing education efficiency or studies, just financial cost) than doctors wouldn't be forced to charge so much for the same basic services (which ultimately result in insurance payments) because the customer simply couldn't afford to pay for the service at those inflated rates.
The cost of healthcare is almost entirely from other sources, though. It's all insurance and overhead, not the cost of the doctors themselves. If we fixed those other things, the cost of the doctor would fade into background noise by comparison.
Of course healthcare is the burden compounded by insurance providers. HCP's say we need to charge X to keep people alive and the business going.
Insurance Providers say "we'll pay x" for this service.
Pharma companies say "screw you all, pay me $5000 per pill"
Doctors say "I have knowledge of these symptoms and can prescribe X Y and Z but I work for an HCP that charges X, I get a fee per client I see, therefor everyone gets the same treatment, regardless of service quality provided"
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Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
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@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
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@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
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@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
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@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
I think that that might be why they created all the pictures. But.... um yeah, no. They had money to get degrees that none of us got, and now want to get paid extra for having been lazy while we all worked at real jobs and learned real skills? That's nearly a personal attack on everyone who ever took the time to get a freaking job,
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@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
Fine with me. Imagine how much the cost of education would drop without loans.
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@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
Fine with me. Imagine how much the cost of education would drop without loans.
100% . . .
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National debt would decrease as well, meaning we might actually be able to pay off things we actually need, like medicine.
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@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
Generally that might be true, but you aren't going to be a very good electrical engineer or chemist if you don't have a foundation in calculus/physical sciences with someone to teach you why things are the way they are. You can go read Wikipedia entries or get a world book encyclopedia, or read Principia Mathematica, but good luck learning any context without any guidance. Sure you don't usually do that stuff in the workplace, but you need to know how it works.
How can you design circuits without knowing what imaginary numbers are, why theyre used in circuit design, why they are irrational, why they are imaginary, why theyre useful in engineering. -
@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
Generally that might be true, but you aren't going to be a very good electrical engineer or chemist if you don't have a foundation in calculus/physical sciences with someone to teach you why things are the way they are. You can go read Wikipedia entries or get a world book encyclopedia, or read Principia Mathematica, but good luck learning any context without any guidance. Sure you don't usually do that stuff in the workplace, but you need to know how it works.
How can you design circuits without knowing what imaginary numbers are, why theyre used in circuit design, why they are irrational, why they are imaginary, why theyre useful in engineering.But that is a use case example of why someone would need a proper experience (work or through higher education).
Higher education is there to teach you fundamentals, that is why it exist. Work is there to teach you practical uses and real experience.
You can know how to build a house or rebuild a motor without ever having gone to college or even high school. Yet these things are just as if not more usable in day to day needs than say "I can teach you about English literature."
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I thought this was debunked by Snopes https://goo.gl/lZ1RIr
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@DenisKelley said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
I thought this was debunked by Snopes https://goo.gl/lZ1RIr
Oh you sly (&^% - Yeah, you got me
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Im talking about engineering as a specific example refuting what you and scott are saying that college is worthless. English Lit is worthless, nobody is going to argue that. Most humanities degrees are totally worthless, and I would question the intelligence of anybody spending 100,000 dollars to learn how to read books, or learn Social Studies for 4+ years.
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@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Im talking about engineering as a specific example refuting what you and scott are saying that college is worthless. English Lit is worthless, nobody is going to argue that. Most humanities degrees are totally worthless, and I would question the intelligence of anybody spending 100,000 dollars to learn how to read books, or learn Social Studies for 4+ years.
College is not required to learn engineering. It can, in some instances, provide opportunities to explore areas of engineering that the average person might not have access, but certainly isn't required.
We hire engineers, and yes, they all have degrees, but we still have to teach them how we engineer our products. And, more to the point, we have non-degreed employees that know more about the engineering of our products and this industry then some of our degreed engineers.
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@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@DustinB3403 said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@wrx7m said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Oh thank goodness. I thought this was going to be a sob story post about these people who should be able to earn something even though they made horrible decisions to take out insane student loans for something almost nobody cares about. It's not. It is about people wanting the rest of us to pay them to do something society doesn't really want or need.
These people need a dose of reality and a lesson in the sunk cost fallacy. Cut bait, head into the real world and learn a real skill.
Now at the same time, I do not think teachers are worthless, but teaching is not a societal need, but a societal expectation.
Higher education is expected to be available and had by everyone, but not everyone wants to go to college. They might just want to go and work for a stone mason, and learn how to work with stone.
Its informal but practical education that teaches real world skills.
I agree. Teachers are not worthless. My mother was a teacher her whole life.
Higher education should be just that- higher education. Don't coddle people in their pursuits of degrees or studies that serve no real purpose. There should never be loans given for those degrees. Imagine if people had to pay cash as they went for a degree in something that nobody needs or cares about. I would be very surprised if there weren't less than half the number of people in these self-created conditions.
No loans, period. No degree is for getting a job, university training is for "general learning", it's not a trade school. So no degree should have loans.
Generally that might be true, but you aren't going to be a very good electrical engineer or chemist if you don't have a foundation in calculus/physical sciences with someone to teach you why things are the way they are.
Having gone to school at both top ranked engineering schools I can tell you that I got more and better calculus and roughly as good physics in high school as they did in the engineering programs. While university influence makes it very hard to get a job in engineering without a degree, it is in no way because of the educational aspects. That's totally false.
My dad was a lifetime engineer as well and he actually just had a meeting where he went off on his old university for having taught him nothing (and this was in the 1960s) and how he had to learn everything without them. And it is so much easier today as high school goes farther and there are unlimited resources for all of the other stuff.
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@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
You can go read Wikipedia entries or get a world book encyclopedia, or read Principia Mathematica, but good luck learning any context without any guidance. Sure you don't usually do that stuff in the workplace, but you need to know how it works.
Actually, it's easier without university guidance because you get better guidance, faster without it. The idea that university is the only place to get the context and guidance is long gone. Of course just reading Wikipedia and Googling things would be a disaster, alone. But all of the books and curriculum and even the coursework of universities... plus tons of equal or better non-university training, is all public and available. Any twelve year old interested in engineering could easily teach it to themselves if they were inclined to do so.
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@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
How can you design circuits without knowing what imaginary numbers are, why theyre used in circuit design, why they are irrational, why they are imaginary, why theyre useful in engineering.
That's HIGH SCHOOL math. Not even senior year stuff. University wasn't what provided that amount of knowledge even when university was important.
Learning all of the math available in engineering is really easy to do with just books. In fact, having done both, it's often easier from books. And certainly faster.
Do you need math and science to be an engineer? Absolutely. Do you learn that at university? You could, but not as easily as learning it somewhere else. Is it university level math or science needed for engineering? No.
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@scottalanmiller said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
How can you design circuits without knowing what imaginary numbers are, why theyre used in circuit design, why they are irrational, why they are imaginary, why theyre useful in engineering.
That's HIGH SCHOOL math. Not even senior year stuff. University wasn't what provided that amount of knowledge even when university was important.
Learning all of the math available in engineering is really easy to do with just books. In fact, having done both, it's often easier from books. And certainly faster.
Do you need math and science to be an engineer? Absolutely. Do you learn that at university? You could, but not as easily as learning it somewhere else. Is it university level math or science needed for engineering? No.
Scott what reality are you in? Most people graduate high school cant even do addition and subtraction without a calculator. Learning engineering physics and calc in high school is not happening anywhere in this country.
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@momurda said in This Is Who Is Teaching College:
Im talking about engineering as a specific example refuting what you and scott are saying that college is worthless. English Lit is worthless, nobody is going to argue that. Most humanities degrees are totally worthless, and I would question the intelligence of anybody spending 100,000 dollars to learn how to read books, or learn Social Studies for 4+ years.
And I'm saying that it is a prime example of how true it is. Any engineering field can be learned faster, better, earlier without the university system. Mechanical, electrical, computer, civil, chemical (this might be the hardest), industrial, manufacturing systems.... all can be taught without the university system, trivially.
