I can't even
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
No, this is incorrect and I proved it beyond any possibility of contradiction. That's NOT a given or even assumed intent of a replica. You could be, but it cannot be assumed and is NOT the most likely case. It's a common case, but WAY under 50% of the time. Maybe 10%, but only maybe.
Nearly all replicas are NOT intended to be used that way.
There is only one reason and one intention to enable Hyper-V Replication, whether through Hyper-V or Veeam Replication... do you know what that one reason is? It's not to have a backup... VM replication is NOT backup. If someone uses Hyper-V replication as backup, then that is the same thing as using RAID as backup.
See, this is where it is false. Totally false. There are very real world, very legit reasons to do this NOT to spin it up. And like I said earlier, I proved this to a point that it cannot be questioned because I DO THIS MYSELF and did so before this conversation.
Hyper-V Replication is the same thing as doing a backup. A snapshot of the VM is taken, then the VMs disk is copied to the replica server. Then the snapshot is merged back into the VMs disk and it runs from there again.
That's EXACTLY how most modern backups work. So yes, in every conceivable way, it is a backup.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
So now you have a "cold" backup of your VM on the replica server. But now it happens again, potentially every 30 seconds.
Just like Veeam and StorageCraft backups. You can even do better than that with Starwinds or Veeam and go to "continuous" where there isn't even the 30 second gap.
You are describing modern backups to a T.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
So now you have a "cold" backup of your VM on the replica server. But now it happens again, potentially every 30 seconds.
Just like Veeam and StorageCraft backups. You can even do better than that with Starwinds or Veeam and go to "continuous" where there isn't even the 30 second gap.
You are describing modern backups to a T.
Which is
God I hope I never have to use you, but if I do you're there and waiting to be run. At which point we'll deal with any additional licensing requirements. But not beforehand. .
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
It seems to me like a cold backup is being done of your VM every 30 seconds (in that case), and the cold backup is "attached" to Hyper-V in that you can easily fail the main VM over to it and start it.
But technically, you can do that with any "image", spin it up on any hardware.
If you spin it up on something, it will need to be licensed... whether by SA DR, or via another license on the server you spin it up on.
Right. Nearly all backups can be started, often immediately or essentially immediately. Once you talk about it from the perspective of technology (the mechanism used) or from possible use cases (spinning up immediately, automatically, etc.) it's actually impossible to separate replicas and backups, as they literally are the same things. No matter how you look at them, they are one and the same. Any definition that changes one has to change the other.
All major backup systems do all teh replication pieces.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
How much people don't know what a computer is blows my mind. How is Raspberry Pi so effing confusing? It's SO simple!!
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2095431-ide-or-emulator-for-raspberry-pi
Wow those people are effing stupid.
I bought a Pi and it has this this and this.
Um no... you bought a SBC kit and it was provided with a operating system that included those tools. I can easily install any OS onto that same hardware and not have any of that. . .
Bunch of dumb asses.
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@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
How much people don't know what a computer is blows my mind. How is Raspberry Pi so effing confusing? It's SO simple!!
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2095431-ide-or-emulator-for-raspberry-pi
Wow those people are effing stupid.
I bought a Pi and it has this this and this.
Um no... you bought a SBC kit and it was provided with a operating system that included those tools. I can easily install any OS onto that same hardware and not have any of that. . .
Bunch of dumb asses.
It got uglier with personal attacks....
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@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
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@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
I know, I didn't say you. I meant the three involved on this. I feel I was attacked on that post as well (Not from you or Scott). That's all. -
@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
I don't get it.
OP bought a RP package and wants to know what his options are.
Depending on the he got with the thing in the package, determines what he can do out-of-the-box.
In his case, it depends on what came pre-loaded on the SD card.
Looks like what OS came pre-loaded on the SD card includes like any programming language he wants.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
I don't get it.
OP bought a RP package and wants to know what his options are.
Depending on the he got with the thing in the package, determines what he can do out-of-the-box.
In his case, it depends on what came pre-loaded on the SD card.
Looks like what OS came pre-loaded on the SD card includes like any programming language he wants.
Yes, we just need to know what he knows or wants to learn.
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@dbeato said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
I don't get it.
OP bought a RP package and wants to know what his options are.
Depending on the he got with the thing in the package, determines what he can do out-of-the-box.
In his case, it depends on what came pre-loaded on the SD card.
Looks like what OS came pre-loaded on the SD card includes like any programming language he wants.
Yes, we just need to know what he knows or wants to learn.
Which I followed up with in my most recent post.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
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@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
Hyper-V Replication is a coined term by Microsoft, its patented and whatever else. Everything else is Replication, but provided through your/the backup software.
There is no special licensing with Hyper-V Replication.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
An application within a server (or VM). This means you woudl need to power up the replica server in order to receive the replicate data.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
An application within a server (or VM). This means you woudl need to power up the replica server in order to receive the replicate data.
Well if that's truly the case, then by all means we can use Hyper-V Replication to create replicas/backups on another Hyper-V server with no concerns about licensing. - right?
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
An application within a server (or VM). This means you woudl need to power up the replica server in order to receive the replicate data.
Well if that's truly the case, then by all means we can use Hyper-V Replication to create replicas/backups on another Hyper-V server with no concerns about licensing. - right?
Correct, you only need to think about licensing when you go to power on that "Replica" which is on the Hyper-V replica target server.
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Well props to @scottalanmiller for sussing out another myth!
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
This is not Hyper-V Replication This is application replication.
Care to expand to what you're driving at?
An application within a server (or VM). This means you woudl need to power up the replica server in order to receive the replicate data.
Well if that's truly the case, then by all means we can use Hyper-V Replication to create replicas/backups on another Hyper-V server with no concerns about licensing. - right?
Correct, as long as it is ONLY for the replica and not to spin it up / HA.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
It got uglier with personal attacks....
I didn't attack anyone, just stating the facts of what a SBC is, and what is included with a hardware purchase.
I don't get it.
OP bought a RP package and wants to know what his options are.
Depending on the he got with the thing in the package, determines what he can do out-of-the-box.
In his case, it depends on what came pre-loaded on the SD card.
Looks like what OS came pre-loaded on the SD card includes like any programming language he wants.
Yeah, but he never mentioned that part. He asked solely about what the hardware would do on its own.
