Offline files nightmare
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@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
I honestly haven't tried NextCloud or ownCloud yet. How is that stored, is it something you can store on-premises if needed (like downloading a server-client copy), or is it only out on someone else's servers, or what? Going to do a little research, just thought I'd ask in the mean time how it realistically looks.
It's just a file server. You install it wherever you want. Same as Samba, Windows File Server, etc.
Ah, ok. So then you're still dealing with offline files? Or do people setup their instance of NextCloud/ownCloud on a web server so that users can access stuff wherever they are, without having to VPN into the network or worry about offline files?
It's just software that you install. It's a normal file server except you use the ownCloud/NextCloud protocols instead of SMB. It's got built in security, you dont use VPNs in the modern world. That's a kludge to handle LAN-centric protocols and setups like SMB and the Windows File Services.
So you just install NextCloud like any normal web server (it runs on APache, so IS a normal web server exactly) and expose it to the outside over HTTPS like any other secure site.
Geez... why would anyone use Windows file services anymore then.
THey shouldn't. I've been preaching against this conceptually for a year. It's LAN-thinking and a vestige of the 1990s. I gave the talk on this at MangoCon. HOpefully it will be posted soon (pinging @MarigabyFrias for an ETA On that.)
Things like NextCloud are the current and future (for now.) SMB is the past. Anything that relies on a LAN or VPN (VPN is just a LAN extension) is old style thinking. We can't always avoid it, but it's a dead mindset.
Some places seem to have a death grip on control/their own hardware for everything. Even companies that don't like having a private cloud on-premises "because it's cloud". That doesn't make sense to me. Literally just had that conversation at the end of last week. That's like saying you hate virtualization, or offering services with less layers of complexity/points of failure/confusion.
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@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
Things like NextCloud are the current and future (for now.) SMB is the past. Anything that relies on a LAN or VPN (VPN is just a LAN extension) is old style thinking. We can't always avoid it, but it's a dead mindset.
Some places seem to have a death grip on control/their own hardware for everything. E
That has no effect whatsoever. Moving to a better architectural design affects that in no way at all.
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@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
Even companies that don't like having a private cloud on-premises "because it's cloud". That doesn't make sense to me. Literally just had that conversation at the end of last week. That's like saying you hate virtualization, or offering services with less layers of complexity/points of failure/confusion.
Yes, thankfully there is nothing here related to cloud in any way. So not relevant. This is about file servers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
Even companies that don't like having a private cloud on-premises "because it's cloud". That doesn't make sense to me. Literally just had that conversation at the end of last week. That's like saying you hate virtualization, or offering services with less layers of complexity/points of failure/confusion.
Yes, thankfully there is nothing here related to cloud in any way. So not relevant. This is about file servers.
Yeah I'm digressing. Having a web server with file services on it got me off track thinking about other conversations.
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How good are the install docs for nextcloud? I setup owncloud about 2 years ago and the installation could have gone more smoothly. I don't remember exactly what it was that I had issues with but am hoping nextcloud is even better.
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@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
Even companies that don't like having a private cloud on-premises "because it's cloud". That doesn't make sense to me. Literally just had that conversation at the end of last week. That's like saying you hate virtualization, or offering services with less layers of complexity/points of failure/confusion.
Yes, thankfully there is nothing here related to cloud in any way. So not relevant. This is about file servers.
Yeah I'm digressing. Having a web server with file services on it got me off track thinking about other conversations.
Yes, it is very easy to put NextCloud on a cloud, or to host it off premises or on VPS. But it's important to keep it separate from a cloud and/or a hosting discussion. Very different things. Just call it a fileserver, makes it more clear for everyone.
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@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
How good are the install docs for nextcloud? I setup owncloud about 2 years ago and the installation could have gone more smoothly. I don't remember exactly what it was that I had issues with but am hoping nextcloud is even better.
@JaredBusch's install docs are great. Took me two minutes to build one.
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@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
Here they are...
https://mangolassi.it/topic/10963/install-nextcloud-10-x-on-centos-7-minimal/
Thanks!
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@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
Forked doesn't mean new. NextCloud is very mature. It's like a decade old, the most mature of its class of software, open source (which adds to maturity) and is on the tenth production major release. If it's not mature, nothing is.
Which is why I didn't understand JB's saying he couldn't use it in production - it was to new.
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@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
Geez... why would anyone use Windows file services anymore then.
Some companies left the LAN design with things like file shared behind last decade. Just waiting for others to catch up.
Microsoft's version of this new design is SharePoint.
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@BBigford said in Offline files nightmare:
I really would love to move to something like that. I've always had fine experiences with syncing to services like Dropbox/OneDrive/Google Drive/etc. We're pretty rooted into the pragmatic setup of on-premises file shares. I also get asked the hard question of "why doesn't this work? It's worked this way for years." To which I don't have an answer, also because I have never had so many users with offline files, and so many people bringing home their laptops every night.
Maybe I'm just venting... I donno. This one has me worn out mentally. I'm so sick of it.
The answer to the bolded part is - it didn't. It's been failing yearly since I started - I'm assuming it was failing on some type of basis before that. So the question is, is 99.73% uptime good enough? or do we need to find another solution?
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@Dashrender said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
Forked doesn't mean new. NextCloud is very mature. It's like a decade old, the most mature of its class of software, open source (which adds to maturity) and is on the tenth production major release. If it's not mature, nothing is.
Which is why I didn't understand JB's saying he couldn't use it in production - it was to new.
Because prior to version 10, with no repo installation process, it was an all manual upgrade mess.
The core NextCloud code is 6 years old (not nearly 10 @scottalanmiller) and is quite stable. The problem is they immediately began to change things after forking. These changes are certainly intended to be good. But this was a huge change of direction.
All of these feature being dropped in had to be reengineered from the (potentially) not open source enterprise code that they came from.
Additionally, the company behind the product is brand new. Yes the people are mostly the same but the company is new.
These are all things that, when combined, mean that I do not feel confident using this application in production.
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@JaredBusch said in Offline files nightmare:
@Dashrender said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
Forked doesn't mean new. NextCloud is very mature. It's like a decade old, the most mature of its class of software, open source (which adds to maturity) and is on the tenth production major release. If it's not mature, nothing is.
Which is why I didn't understand JB's saying he couldn't use it in production - it was to new.
Because prior to version 10, with no repo installation process, it was an all manual upgrade mess.
The core NextCloud code is 6 years old (not nearly 10 @scottalanmiller) and is quite stable. The problem is they immediately began to change things after forking. These changes are certainly intended to be good. But this was a huge change of direction.
All of these feature being dropped in had to be reengineered from the (potentially) not open source enterprise code that they came from.
Additionally, the company behind the product is brand new. Yes the people are mostly the same but the company is new.
These are all things that, when combined, mean that I do not feel confident using this application in production.
How are these changes different from ones that ownCloud did/would have made? I consider this even less of a concern since most of the dev team came over directly from the oC project, so they would already be intimately familiar with the product and it's code.
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@Dashrender said in Offline files nightmare:
@JaredBusch said in Offline files nightmare:
@Dashrender said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
Forked doesn't mean new. NextCloud is very mature. It's like a decade old, the most mature of its class of software, open source (which adds to maturity) and is on the tenth production major release. If it's not mature, nothing is.
Which is why I didn't understand JB's saying he couldn't use it in production - it was to new.
Because prior to version 10, with no repo installation process, it was an all manual upgrade mess.
The core NextCloud code is 6 years old (not nearly 10 @scottalanmiller) and is quite stable. The problem is they immediately began to change things after forking. These changes are certainly intended to be good. But this was a huge change of direction.
All of these feature being dropped in had to be reengineered from the (potentially) not open source enterprise code that they came from.
Additionally, the company behind the product is brand new. Yes the people are mostly the same but the company is new.
These are all things that, when combined, mean that I do not feel confident using this application in production.
How are these changes different from ones that ownCloud did/would have made? I consider this even less of a concern since most of the dev team came over directly from the oC project, so they would already be intimately familiar with the product and it's code.
They had to write new code to implement features that were enterprise only. This is not the same code.
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@JaredBusch said in Offline files nightmare:
@Dashrender said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller said in Offline files nightmare:
@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@dafyre Good to know. I was considering owncloud then it got forked(?) to nextcloud and it is still too new for me to use in production.
Forked doesn't mean new. NextCloud is very mature. It's like a decade old, the most mature of its class of software, open source (which adds to maturity) and is on the tenth production major release. If it's not mature, nothing is.
Which is why I didn't understand JB's saying he couldn't use it in production - it was to new.
Because prior to version 10, with no repo installation process, it was an all manual upgrade mess.
The core NextCloud code is 6 years old (not nearly 10 @scottalanmiller) and is quite stable. The problem is they immediately began to change things after forking. These changes are certainly intended to be good. But this was a huge change of direction.
All of these feature being dropped in had to be reengineered from the (potentially) not open source enterprise code that they came from.
Additionally, the company behind the product is brand new. Yes the people are mostly the same but the company is new.
These are all things that, when combined, mean that I do not feel confident using this application in production.
The important but is that they made rapid changes AFTER forking. No different than if MS Office made some big changes between versions.
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@scottalanmiller Right, and that is why I don't have Windows 10 AU running on any of my users' systems.
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@wrx7m said in Offline files nightmare:
@scottalanmiller Right, and that is why I don't have Windows 10 AU running on any of my users' systems.
WTF? Completely different, because MS doesn't do that.
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@JaredBusch Microsoft doesn't make big changes between versions?
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Now I'm just lost.
