HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments



  • Good morning guys! Just coming off a great weekend! Hope everyone is ok 🙂

    I spoke with HPE last friday about a new installation I'm doing and one of the engineers wasn't necessarily debating me, but strongly held onto the notion of RAID5 for our scenario for our new installation for our nas and a local server. I explained I have friends in the industry well more versed than I that have had LENGTHY discussions about why NOT to use RAID5 for most of my needs (since its just virtualization and NAS is about all I care about these days) and that RAID10 is usually the best to use depending on certain scenarios.

    Is it just me or is it that some people still believe RAID5 is the goto thing in 2016?


  • Banned

    Is their RAID 5 true standard RAID 5? That makes a difference. EMC still recommends RAID 5 but it is not your standard run of the mill RAID 5 they have extra protections built into it. The use proactive sparing and already have a certain number of drives duplicated



  • @Jason said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Is their RAID 5 true standard RAID 5? That makes a difference. EMC still recommends RAID 5 but it is not your standard run of the mill RAID 5 they have extra protections built into it. The use proactive sparing and already have a certain number of drives duplicated

    EMC uses true RAID 5, they just waste tons of money to make it "safe enough" which, in turn, makes it extra expensive and... not a good option. EMC got ripped apart at SpiceWorld several years ago for preaching RAID 5. They were never able to defend it well.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Is it just me or is it that some people still believe RAID5 is the goto thing in 2016?

    RAID 5 is used to lower the acquisition cost of storage systems so that the vendor can make maximum money on the device and pass the extra risks off to you as the buyer. Vendors believe in RAID 5, yes.



  • Remember, while HPE makes some amazing stuff like 3PAR, they also make "never ever use" devices like the MSA. You would expect people who sell MSAs to also push RAID 5. Once you are working with devices so bad, what difference does the RAID level make? It doesn't make RAID 5 okay, it just makes the whole situation worse.



  • @krisleslie They weren't quoting all SSD/Flash storage, right?



  • No, still quoting 10K & 15K since its just for Windows Multipoint Server 2012. I refuse to go to 2016 currently.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    No, still quoting 10K & 15K since its just for Windows Multipoint Server 2012. I refuse to go to 2016 currently.

    Why are you looking at external storage for Multipoint servers? 3PAR is massive overkill for that.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    No, still quoting 10K & 15K since its just for Windows Multipoint Server 2012. I refuse to go to 2016 currently.

    Normally I'd say to get your drives from xByte and pay the same for SSD as you do 10K drives. I don't know of a good company that does the same sort of thing with HPE. So I don't know where to go in order to get sanely priced drives that will work in a HPE server.



  • Oh wait, is this HPE Servers, not storage? Why would HPE even get into the discussion of the RAID if this isn't a proprietary storage device? What exactly is being purchased here?



  • SAM yea its just for servers not necessarily external storage. We just plan on using Windows Multipoint Server is small deployments for classrooms which is its best use case. We got on the topic of storage just for the local host, I still plan on having a local NAS and then site to site back up via rsync.

    Of course he got on the topic of external storage and I immediately let em know I got a synology nas with raid 10 works fine I leave it alone lol



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    SAM yea its just for servers not necessarily external storage. We just plan on using Windows Multipoint Server is small deployments for classrooms which is its best use case. We got on the topic of storage just for the local host, I still plan on having a local NAS and then site to site back up via rsync.

    Gotcha. Why is there then an HPE Engineer involved at all? Remove him from the conversation. He's a vendor and not on your side. He's trying to sell servers, not protect you. RAID 5 isn't an option there. RAID 6 and RAID 10 are. Or even RAID 1 in some cases.

    HPE should not even be having a conversation with you like this. You tell them what parts to ship, they ship them. End of engagement. Don't let their sales guys pressure you. And don't let them have any insight into the RAID, that's not for them to know about.

    https://mangolassi.it/topic/5474/never-let-the-vendor-set-up-a-server



  • No pressure so far but I know if I let the engineer have his way lol it would come at some point. Knowledgeable guy! I'm interested also in getting a relationship with them locally (as well with Dell) just for the philanthropic side of it.



  • Oh I forgot to mention this SAM, I told him about you and he wanted me to send him some of your articles and I said I sure GLADLY WILL 🙂

    He really wants to sell me on buying a dual server setup (which I might) just not because of his reasoning.

    I explained that really sticking with a single server and beefing it up and having the things that break on site is really the best cost/case scenario. At that point he brought out the "what if the motherboard breaks" chat and I said in a case like that, thats where the 4 hour or NBD would come into play, but I would still have a good plan in place to limit/mitigate complete failure.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    No pressure so far but I know if I let the engineer have his way lol it would come at some point. Knowledgeable guy! I'm interested also in getting a relationship with them locally (as well with Dell) just for the philanthropic side of it.

    Well, BUT... the engineer only sets up the box to ship. You ALWAYS start from scratch once it arrives. So even if he sets it up as RAID 5, you'd never know because you ALWAYS without any exception, set up your server yourself once it arrives assuming that nothing has been done.

    But why is an engineer even talking to you? I'm confused by how the scenario arose.



  • Well the engineer came at the request of the sales rep not me.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    I explained that really sticking with a single server and beefing it up and having the things that break on site is really the best cost/case scenario. At that point he brought out the "what if the motherboard breaks" chat and I said in a case like that, thats where the 4 hour or NBD would come into play, but I would still have a good plan in place to limit/mitigate complete failure.

    This is an odd tact that I've seen a few times from HPE.... trying to sell you more gear by telling you that their products are bad. It's crazy. Basically he's trying to scare you by putting the notion into your head that HPE can't fix your server if it breaks. Um, if so, why am I buying HPE?



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Well the engineer came at the request of the sales rep not me.

    Why is the sales rep getting to make choices like that?



  • Coincidentally, I talked to my dell rep and engineer and we all got along quite nicely. We have a spec in place and I should start testing with them this week or next.



  • The sales rep eventually got quiet, I actually think the sales rep wanted to be in favor of me, but the engineer kinda took the wheel. He wants me to go full VDI. I don't want full VDI.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Coincidentally, I talked to my dell rep and engineer and we all got along quite nicely. We have a spec in place and I should start testing with them this week or next.

    But why are these sales people (engineer is a false term here, they are all sales people) even getting your ear? This should not happen. There is no benefit to that, their only purpose is to mislead you into buying what you don't need. Their only purpose. Protect yourself by removing them from the scenario. You are the customer, they can't talk to you if you don't let them.

    There is no rule in IT more important than this...

    http://www.smbitjournal.com/2011/07/never-get-advice-from-a-reseller-or-vendor/



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    The sales rep eventually got quiet, I actually think the sales rep wanted to be in favor of me, but the engineer kinda took the wheel. He wants me to go full VDI. I don't want full VDI.

    How do they even know what you are working on? Don't give them that info.



  • My question @krisleslie is why don't you want to virtualize your storage?



  • @DustinB3403 said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    My question @krisleslie is why don't you want to virtualize your storage?

    These are local disks on a server, not separate storage. The HPE Engineer being in the discussion threw me off as to what we were talking about.



  • They just started advertising here locally in BHAM so it was good to meet them 🙂 of course I don't drink all the kool-aid they have 😛



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    They just started advertising here locally in BHAM so it was good to meet them 🙂 of course I don't drink all the kool-aid they have 😛

    Just a few shots of the kool-aide are generally enough.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    They just started advertising here locally in BHAM so it was good to meet them 🙂 of course I don't drink all the kool-aid they have 😛

    Just started? They've not been there for a century? HPE is everywhere.



  • Let me rephrase that they have been here, but I haven't had them reach out to me or my small circle of non profit IT lately in Birmingham. Good thing is they are less than 3 min from my office downtown, bad thing is they are less than 3 minutes from my office space haha. They want lunches are other fun things to occur. However, I have dealt with enough vendors to know when your trying to sell me 🙂



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Let me rephrase that they have been here, but I haven't had them reach out to me or my small circle of non profit IT lately in Birmingham. Good thing is they are less than 3 min from my office downtown, bad thing is they are less than 3 minutes from my office space haha. They want lunches are other fun things to occur. However, I have dealt with enough vendors to know when your trying to sell me 🙂

    So take em up on their lunch offers, you have no reason to buy from em. If they want to take you out, let em.

    Just be wise enough to not purchase from them.



  • @krisleslie said in HPE Engineers still suggesting RAID5 for deployments:

    Let me rephrase that they have been here, but I haven't had them reach out to me or my small circle of non profit IT lately in Birmingham. Good thing is they are less than 3 min from my office downtown, bad thing is they are less than 3 minutes from my office space haha. They want lunches are other fun things to occur. However, I have dealt with enough vendors to know when your trying to sell me 🙂

    Vendors are ALWAYS trying to sell you, without exception. Ignore sales dick #1 and sales dick #2 (the "engineer") and do your own research. All you need from them is a price quote on what you have specifically selected to best suit your needs. If their quote tries to vary from your original selections (looking at you, CDW), then walk away and buy from someone else.


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