Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
No, I actually think that the money is pretty significant. But other than that, yes. Willing to sacrifice the customers' best interest in exchange for a kickback that isn't ethical (unless disclosed.)
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
It's not the intention, it's a willingness. The goal isn't to screw anyone, the goal is to make money. That's why you get clients in the first place. Adding in the pay from the vendors is just more of the ultimate goal - money.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
Can't state this enough, no money is sitting on any sidewalks until after your work for the vendor has been completed. It's payment for services, you are delluding yourself every time you talk about sidewalks. None of us are buying that analogy, it's totally misleading and untrue.
Would you say that to the customer? "Yeah, I was paid by the vendor to sell you on the solution that I sold you. But you shouldn't be mad because... their payments to me was just money laying around for me to collect."
If not, you can't keep saying it. I cannot possibly make it more clear - there is no money laying around here for you to just pick up.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
You assume I don't?
I'm fighting the idea that BECAUSE Chevy has a $20 kickback, I'm therefore utterly blinded by, controlled by and mindlessly obsessed with promoting, pushing their vehicles ONLY above everything else. Chasing pennies, in other words. And further that I should literally change my entire business model to be the "Chevy VAR" company who comes to your business to push only Chevys.
It's fine if you want to have that view of human nature, I'm just saying it's not me.
Nope. That's your emotional reaction to what we've said, which tells us that you are much, much more influenced by it than we would normally think. We've said,over and over and over, that you are likely influenced by it "just a little bit". But you are freaking out every time changing that, no matter how clear we make it, that everything is an absolute and that your are influenced 100% when we've suggested nothing of the sort and corrected you many times to make sure that you could not possibly think that.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Good question. That "bonus" is a payment for handing over a customer. It exists for acting as the reseller.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
Do whatever you want. We all adults here, but making $20 on the side could ruin your whole business. I know what amazon affiliate links look like as many other people do and it could put your reputation at risk.
Here is an idea. If the $20 is that important to you then just add it on to the bill. No one will complain then.
I doubt that it will ruin his business. Chances are, no one is going to catch him. This kind of thing is super common in IT shops. Getting away with it is easy. Living with it is what is hard. If he can clear his conscious, that's his business. Well, and his clients' business. It's obviously unethical, maybe illegal, but likely to get caught or found out? No way. This is purely about professionalism and ethics, for all intents and purposes. It definitely will help him make a viable business out of the SMB market.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
While you might never succumb to this, most others have. Especially when they realize their is a ton more to be made by getting paid by the vendor instead of getting paid by the client.
That's a big thing. The money starts adding up. I showed how the tiny Digital Ocean affiliate stuff might double his income alone (for that transaction.) As you add more and more things, the percentage of money that this can represent just grows and grows.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I don't give a two-bit rats behind what an affiliate thinks about anything. So no, I don't work for them.
Again, this is untrue unless you don't get any money from them. Period. I'm so lost as to how you think we would not see through this statement. This is so clearly not true, it's not even plausible to claim. Of course you give a rat's ass. This entire thread is about how much you care.
This thread is because I reject your conclusions and definitions in some parts. So my statement stands. I don't accept affiliate because I'm emotionally tied or those vendors have got some hold on me. I've stated many many times already, I accept it because it's simply free to do, a bonus if their product happens to be in the solution.
Sure I could purify myself and never use affiliates, no skin off my back, but the reasons for doing so are weak at best. I don't feel any particular obligations or drive to push one thing over anything else, you can claim this is impossible all you want but it's true for me and it's disclosed if ever used.
People who call me are always some mix of "I want that" and "can you help me make the right decision though". It's never pure consulting, or pure VAR. They never call and say "I need precisely a Synology with 4 bays using WD Reds of 3TB with RAID10 partitioned in 4 parts of these exact sizes". Instead they say something like "I want some shared storage we can all use, I've heard of Synology, Staples has a Buffalo on sale, Costco has a ReadyNAS, I don't know how much storage I need, can you help me?"
I can't help but think in the real world case that I AM doing some level of consulting, AND some level of VARing. They need me to research and discover their needs and help them navigate options, but at the same time I already know they are going to end up buying something like a NAS one way or the other.
For example:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
We say this because we know that VARs have one job - to sell you a product/service at the highest price they possibly can.
There is a serious issue with definitions here.
You say that if one or two vendors in my toolbox have affiliate programs that I joined, this MAKES me a VAR by definition, I'm now beholden to them, they are my master, I serve them, and it's now my JOB to sell just that product "at the highest price" I can, etc etc.
This is silliness. It can't be both ways. Because I would never say (affiliates or not) that my "job" is selling people things at the highest price. I'm not a car salesman. So what's it going to be?
If a VAR is a salesman who tries to sell as much as possible, oversell, and pushes only their things, but I do none of that, how can I still be a VAR? You can't define a VAR as a car salesman, then start applying the term to people who are not car salesman.
Something is still not right here.
Not only that but but these definitions cannot be applied universally. They can only be applied on a client-by-client basis. If I disclose to a client that they can use my partner link and I'll get a bonus for their signup and they are ok with it (they always are) then that is one situation. But my very next job at 4pm might be a person who doesn't need anything for which I'm affiliated, so no sales pressure, so it's not VAR?
I might have a client at 10am who just says "set us up with O365". I guess that means I'm a VAR since they already know what they want? But my next job at 3pm they want to know why they get no wireless signal in the concrete basement and just want to know what they can do about it. So now I'm just consulting and not a VAR?
Everything I do is based on client needs, what are they wanting from me? So it seems quite unfair to universally stamp me as a VAR when I may not be doing that with any given client. Salesman at CDW or the car dealership work sales with everybody, all day. They are VAR 100%. I don't work "for" anybody in the same sense, each client is different.Again, I only reject the label of VAR because it keeps being defined as "pushy car salesman whose only job is sell as much as possible but also be smart about how products work". Since this doesn't describe me, I can't call myself that. My job is not to sell as much as possible, my job is to accomplish the goals needed by the client. So what then? Maybe I'm just a bad VAR? I don't know.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Absolutely, no one is questioning WHY you did it or why you felt it was an obvious move. It's easy when doing that kind of consulting to see simple money and think "why not just make that since I just did an action that got me to this point anyway." We totally get that. It's just that many of us have done this for a long time and have had to put thought into what being a consultant means, and many of us have been customers and know what needs to happen to keep people unbiased and we have all had very regular dealings with resellers who style themselves as consultants - it's possibly the biggest problem in SMB IT. And it isn't casual, it's downright criminal. People effectively steal tens of thousands of dollars from little companies every day under the program of reselling things but pretending to solely represent the customer's interest in a research activity.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Remember - we are primarily talking about engagements where you are specifically PAID to give an opinion. In that situation, it is unethical to get a kickback for something you suggest.
Unless it is disclosed. It's always okay if everyone knows about it.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Sketchy, but honest. So not unethical. But certainly weird and/or sketchy.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam.
No, affiliate means bias, not scam. Not disclosing it is the scam. Don't keep mixing the two. Totally different issues.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
It's civil contract law. Client is not required to ask, anyone being hired in a client representation role is required to disclose. If I did this to a customer, they could come after me using "bad faith." I covered this earlier but it probably got buried in the thread. You breached your implied contract with the client.
You could try to argue that the non-disclosure was accidental. But you can be sure that they would get other customers to talk. And then they'd be talking to lawyers, too.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Right. And we also know that that means that the affiliates are the "employer", not the person getting services for free. And we know that there is bias based on that money. So the common knowledge that has been gathered from how the free Internet is what we are applying here - people now know that when they aren't the ones paying for advice, someone else is paying to sell to them. We are simply taking this and applying it to your situation.
When the vendor pays, you represent them. When the customer pays, you represent the customer. When they both pay.... that's when we get complexities. The free Internet works because there is no customer, just people looking at free content in exchange for being sold to.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
Again... corruption is around the disclosure, not the affiliate program.
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Why would it have to be disclosed?
A store doesn't disclose profit.
You don't know what your Happy Meal cost McDonald's to produce.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's good to ask, but it is required that they tell whether someone asks or not in a situation where it applies.
For example, what if I resold Netgear equipment. I do consulting and I recommend Dell equipment. I need not disclose that I had a bias away from Dell. I probably should, but I don't have to. But if I consult and recommend Netgear, I must disclose that I'm getting paid to make that recommendation. I can explain why I'm not overly biased by that, but I must tell them, every time.
Disclaimer: I do NOT sell Netgear. It's an example.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.
Caveat Emptor is great life advice, but very bad for a consultant to use as their own motto. This suggests the idea that the consultant in question is the enemy of his clients and out to get them, rather than doing their job and working for them. Of course, clients SHOULD question everything and audit their consultants. But consultants should also make customers not have to.
Don't be the consultant that proves why the customer should have been wary. Be the one that rewards their trust.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's good to ask, but it is required that they tell whether someone asks or not in a situation where it applies.
For example, what if I resold Netgear equipment. I do consulting and I recommend Dell equipment. I need not disclose that I had a bias away from Dell. I probably should, but I don't have to. But if I consult and recommend Netgear, I must disclose that I'm getting paid to make that recommendation. I can explain why I'm not overly biased by that, but I must tell them, every time.
Disclaimer: I do NOT sell Netgear. It's an example.
But, a consultant, you'd expect to be looking at the wide range of everything.
A VAR (that I trust), I'd expect to have a great knowledge of things they support for whatever reason (probably money) and always recommend those things.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Haha yeah, but surprisingly, not for some people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of saving $15 bucks. Especially a non-profit. They still use Win XP on computers taken from Good Will.
Well, I believe most non-profits are scams themselves (not all, but definitely most) so of course they like these systems. Non-profit IT will very likely ask for a kick back themselves! Super common.
