How much notice to give an employer?
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Brains said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ said in How much notice to give an employer?:
My employer requires 1 month of notice otherwise you are not paid out your Earned Time (Vacation days)
Yeah this sounds completely illegal in every state of the US.
Earned Time or PTO is a part of your employment contract. Just because you weren't able to use it, doesn't mean they aren't allowed to get away with not paying you for that time.
More importantly... it's part of your PAY. Pay that you have already earned. So taking it away is no different than holding you down and emptying your wallet.
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@IRJ said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@david.wiese said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@IRJ it depends on how the company is structured. So for me I won't get paid out for the remaining 4 days that I have since I haven't "earned" them yet. You earn them based on the amount of hours you work and when you leave, they can pro-rate that amount. It is perfectly legal.
Well if you haven't earned them yet, but if you have 10 days of vacation accrued. They need to pay it out.
Exactly
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
I do realize they have to pay the PTO regardless, it's earned, it's legally their money. I'm just trying to see if there is a legal way of doing what Dustin said?
In "at will" states, the firing without cause is pretty much meaningless, so if you don't want the employee to finish out their 'notice' just fire them with few/no issues - yeah of course unemployment could still be an issue.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
What about 'at will' states?
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
In "at will" states, the firing without cause is pretty much meaningless,
I don't know who is telling you this stuff but it's totally false. First, nearly all states are effectively at will. Those that are not, are basically at will. The US is nearly an at will country. Firing is ALWAYS meaningful, VERY meaningful. When you fire someone, YOU are the deciding factor, not them. You can never claim that they quit, you can never claim that you fired them for cause, you can never not pay unemployment for them. It's a very, very big deal.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
It's legal. But they are laid off. Company takes the hit for laying people off for two weeks. That's a furlough (temporary lay off with a guaranteed return date.) So yes, if you are asking if firing the person is legal, sure. But they then STILL have to pay the PTO AND they have to pay unemployment!
Could they lay them off? or does that suffer the same penalties as firing them?
Could you lay off someone that just put in notice? Sure, if you can PROVE that them giving notice had literally zero impact on the decision and that they would have been laid off otherwise and that the layoff was legit otherwise. So if, for example, you had all the paperwork in place to lay someone off, and you walked into their office ready to tell them, and they turned around and said "Hey, sorry but I'm leaving, here is my two week notice", THEN you could say, oh, actually you are laid off starting now. But unless you can prove that you were about to say those words (and in any legitimate lay off, you could) then you fired them without cause and suffer all penalties of firing them PLUS the penalties for trying to scam the system.
What about 'at will' states?
That's exactly what I'm describing. Never think of "at will" states as a unique case. This always applies. At will does not mean that you can lie or commit fraud.
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so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I do realize they have to pay the PTO regardless, it's earned, it's legally their money. I'm just trying to see if there is a legal way of doing what Dustin said?
What Dustin is describing is... NOT paying them during their two weeks of work. That they are required to be at home for it doesn't change that they didn't take vacation time. So not paying them for the time is literally the same as firing them but trying to hide it from the IRS. It's literally just fraud.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
THAT is the big deal. Unemployment is like forever. You pay for many years, possibly decades. And the "we fired someone without cause" stays with you forever, it's blots the company's credibility and marks them as unprofessional AND justifies other employees walking out without notice and having proof as to why they could not give any. This is a really big deal to a company.
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@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
so fire them, pay unemployment and move on. What's the big deal? Assuming you want them gone the moment they hand in their notice.
If that's what you want, why not just pay them the two weeks and ask them to stay home? You pay less, let them quit, take on no risk and are a good employer. Every decent company works this way, and every enterprise that I've ever heard of. HR will never let you fire people after they put in notice, that's a disaster.
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
It's not fired, it's laid off. They are legally two different things. They might feel the same to you but they are totally different on a reference check, on a resume, in an interview and to the government. Being fired means that you were at fault, being laid off means the company was at fault.
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
It's not fired, it's laid off. They are legally two different things. They might feel the same to you but they are totally different on a reference check, on a resume, in an interview and to the government. Being fired means that you were at fault, being laid off means the company was at fault.
Verbiage issues aside, do you agree that the employer can't tell you to use PTO to receive a check in the scenario? That they should be paying you through Unemployment insurance.
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@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@DustinB3403 said in How much notice to give an employer?:
I've heard of cases were a person was leaving their job, and forced to take PTO for the 2 weeks, consuming the PTO.
Tricked, not forced. You can't be forced to take PTO, not unless you signed an agreement ahead of time that agreed to that and even then it's questionable.
Maybe neither - send you home without pay. I hear about shops that close for 2 weeks over holidays. Those shops tell the employees, you have two options, use vacation time to get paid, or go without pay.
Are you saying this is illegal?
I've experienced this at one of my first jobs. It was the oddest thing (being a kid and not knowing what the heck was occurring) Ok the business is closing for these 2 weeks, take PTO (which still seems odd) or don't get paid.
"Hey we're closing the business for two weeks, your technically fired for this time, with a guaranteed restart date, but you can use PTO and still get a check..."
Um no pay me for unemployment, and continue my PTO when the business starts back up.
It's not fired, it's laid off. They are legally two different things. They might feel the same to you but they are totally different on a reference check, on a resume, in an interview and to the government. Being fired means that you were at fault, being laid off means the company was at fault.
Verbiage issues aside, do you agree that the employer can't tell you to use PTO to receive a check in the scenario? That they should be paying you through Unemployment insurance.
Can you get paid unemployment for only two weeks out of work? I'm not sure that you can. The employer is perfectly allowed to say what they said assuming that they didn't lie. Offering you PTO during a furlough is allowed.
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@scottalanmiller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
@Dashrender said in How much notice to give an employer?:
In "at will" states, the firing without cause is pretty much meaningless,
I don't know who is telling you this stuff but it's totally false. First, nearly all states are effectively at will. Those that are not, are basically at will. The US is nearly an at will country. Firing is ALWAYS meaningful, VERY meaningful. When you fire someone, YOU are the deciding factor, not them. You can never claim that they quit, you can never claim that you fired them for cause, you can never not pay unemployment for them. It's a very, very big deal.
Unfortunately it doesnt always work out the way it should. I got fired from a job because I was starting college classes even though during my interview they agreed to work with me on my schedule. I had communicated with them regarding availability before scheduling my classes and they just told me to let them know when I got my schedule. I had been there 6-8 months and was one of their top performers. They changed their story 3 times (after i successfully proved them untruthful each time) during the unemployment process & appeal. They didn't even show up for the appeal and I still lost. I even had to file a Texas Wage Complaint because they tried to hold on to my check too long.
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Fairly typical in IT to get walked out immediately after giving notice so I'd say give them as much as you can. They have to pay you out for it.
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@MattSpeller said in How much notice to give an employer?:
Fairly typical in IT to get walked out immediately after giving notice so I'd say give them as much as you can. They have to pay you out for it.
Can I tell them I'm leaving in 2 years then? Do I get paid for all that time and still get walked out?
