Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@coliver said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I have a laptop, but no real home lab. I have done the odd thing I've been really interested in, but not often.
IMO, if I need to learn something for work - I learn at work/on the job.
If I don't need to learn something 'IT' for work, i'm most likely not going to spend time learning it at home - I have no use for it.^ of course, at the point it is needed for work, if, then I will learn at work as its needed.
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because you are genuinely curious and passionate about technology? I will probably never use KVM on the job but I would like to know how to do things in it if I ever do need it. Many technologies that I implemented in my home lab I have brought to my job as a resource.
Also, as IT, we make decisions about what to use on the job. How do you know what to use at work, if you haven't been playing with it?
Research when a project comes up.
That's an insanely costly and ineffective means of doing it most of the time. I have to make decisions constantly, often in a meeting. There is no time to research, especially if I have to question things already proposed. Researching might take weeks or months and in some cases years. Decisions often have to be in minutes.
Yes, but using my OWN time to learn to is a detriment when all it does is save the COMPANY time. Sure, give me 'research days' to do this stuff or an allowance. But don't expect me to learn everything possible to learn in case 'something' comes up and needs a quick answer.
Research such things at work, for work. Home is for home.
It's not about saving your company time, it's about making you able to do the job, versus the job not getting done or someone else doing it.
Home is for home, and work is for work, is exactly what, as someone wanting maximum family time, I want to avoid. I want home and work to mix as much as possible, because I never want to be without family time.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
So you have absolutely no personal time where you work on hobbies, etc? That's what most are talking about here. When others might be off playing basketball, others will be playing in a lab, learning - because that's what they enjoy doing more than playing basketball.
Of course. But learning a random arbitrary IT 'thing' has no use unless that thing is needed - say at work. If that's the case, work has a responsibility to engage end provide that time, not me.
I'll agree that you shouldn't simply learn arbitrary things. You should learn things YOU are personally interested in. But if nothing interests you - why are you in IT?
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
So you have absolutely no personal time where you work on hobbies, etc? That's what most are talking about here. When others might be off playing basketball, others will be playing in a lab, learning - because that's what they enjoy doing more than playing basketball.
Of course. But learning a random arbitrary IT 'thing' has no use unless that thing is needed - say at work. If that's the case, work has a responsibility to engage end provide that time, not me.
I'll agree that you shouldn't simply learn arbitrary things. You should learn things YOU are personally interested in. But if nothing interests you - why are you in IT?
I did say I've done that for the odd thing I've been interested in... but not often enough to call it a lab.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Why spend valuable free time with family learning something that you will possibly never ever use. Learn something when its needed and save wasted time learning something that's never needed.
Because it is fun, and it is what causes us to move forward in our professions.
Its not as fun as spending time with family. We all have our own needs from life - personally time with loved ones is top priority over learning things I may never use.
So you have absolutely no personal time where you work on hobbies, etc? That's what most are talking about here. When others might be off playing basketball, others will be playing in a lab, learning - because that's what they enjoy doing more than playing basketball.
Of course. But learning a random arbitrary IT 'thing' has no use unless that thing is needed - say at work. If that's the case, work has a responsibility to engage end provide that time, not me.
I'll agree that you shouldn't simply learn arbitrary things. You should learn things YOU are personally interested in. But if nothing interests you - why are you in IT?
Right. This was never said (or even implied) but other people not on this thread have said this to me this past week and it is worth bringing up - they basically hate this jobs and want it to go away at the end of the day. That makes zero sense to me. That family comes over work - I think you'll find no one that agrees with that more than me. Every job decision I make is about how it will impact my time with my family. But after spending time with my family, doing my job is my favourite thing to do. Sure, even then, I still want to watch TV sometimes or play video games, but not as much as I want to work. And I often do them all at the same time.
If you dislike your work, find a job you love.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
I assume he meant a job description, not a specific job.
Like "Exchange Admin" not "Exchange Admin for COmpany Y"
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
But all IT uses all IT. That's kind of the point. The more you know, the better you can do the jobs. Within reason, of course.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
Percentage wise, I think the number of these types of jobs are pretty small. So while it's definitely great that you made it there, the reality is that many/most never will. That's not saying that they couldn't if they really wanted it. According to you, there is a vacuum in that space, not enough people to fill the need, but you're also talking about a type of person that is needed for those positions, which is also a rare thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
But all IT uses all IT. That's kind of the point. The more you know, the better you can do the jobs. Within reason, of course.
I don't need a lab to enable me to have enough of an overview to be able to make decisions. A lab enables me to know something inside and out with enough time give, and IMO, no point going in such depth unless its actually needed.
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@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support. -
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Education takes time away from anything else you're doing unless the family is learning the same thing as you at the same time. I'm not really sure how Scott gets more time with family because he spends time getting educated.
Because it allows me to work in more "Decision making" roles rather than "button pushing" roles. And it gives me more senior positions. So that I have the power to do things like dictate my schedule, my location, that I will work from home, that my family will come with me on business travel, and so forth.
Percentage wise, I think the number of these types of jobs are pretty small. So while it's definitely great that you made it there, the reality is that many/most never will. That's not saying that they couldn't if they really wanted it. According to you, there is a vacuum in that space, not enough people to fill the need, but you're also talking about a type of person that is needed for those positions, which is also a rare thing.
Well, for example, in the SMB, it's really the only needed role. Basically anyone choosing to work in the SMB is either the person in that role or working directly for the person in that role almost always as the sole adviser. I bet the majority of IT roles are either decision maker or the key decision influencer roles.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
According to you, there is a vacuum in that space, not enough people to fill the need, but you're also talking about a type of person that is needed for those positions, which is also a rare thing.
One explains the other. The vacuum exists due to a lack of people prepared to do those roles.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support.And those that do often base your pay for the new job off of your rate for the old one.
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Exceptions exist, of course, but even for the biggest British firms, I've not seen it happen. Those that learn at home move up, get to work from home, get paid twice as much, those that require company training slow down, are less likely to get the next opening (because someone that already knows the material is ready) and get less leverage.
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@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@jimmy9008 said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
YAGNI.
That's a good principle, but doesn't apply to education
Heh, indeed. Although, it somewhat does. If i'm not going to need it, its not useful to learn. If a job requires it, at that point i'd spend time learning it - quite possibly in my own time. But before then, no point.
What if you couldn't get the job without already knowing (or at least having a basic understanding of) it?
At THAT time i'd either learn this, like I did say, or not apply.
It's to late to learn it then.. they are hiring now - it might take you months or years to learn it.. by then the job is long gone.
It doesn't sit well with me to sit and learn things in my own time, taking months or years to learn, where I do not know if a job will ever arise needing it. l Like I said: YAGNI.
Then how will you ever progress? If you are a Windows desktop support person how do you move up to network engineer? Most companies won't educate you on that so you can get a job at that company doing that... you have to self learn at least the basics... then show them you know it to get a promotion, or move to a new company with certs showing you at least know basics... etc.
You don't just wake up tomorrow and have a job supporting VMWare clusters when yesterday you only knew about Windows desktop machine support.For somebody to go from no job, to a having 1 year 1st line, then 1 year 2nd Line, all documented on CV, shows that they learn. Their experience shows you that somehow manage to learn what they need to know and are able to progress. You should not assume its impossible for them without a lab.
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Them having a home lab has no basis to prove they will be good or bad at any job.
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Let's reverse it and look at things from the company's perspective - why pay to train someone during company time for a new job or role when there are loads of people out there, maybe external or elsewhere internally in larger companies, that already know the material and don't just bring a willingness to learn it to the table, but bring passion, experience, and proven ability. As an employer that is a big risk in training someone - you don't know how well they will learn the material, you don't know if you can find good training, you don't know if they will like the job after you've trained them, you don't know if they will stay with you after you've trained them, and you don't get any experience after having trained them but get a newbie with zero experience for all of your effort and risk.
