Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
That would be opposed to the candidate who seems to have blasted out generic resumes to as many people as possible to see what sticks.
What's the negative there? You can't know what place is good to work until you work there. Interviewing lots of places gives you the best potential insight to find out if a place looks good. And only 1% of companies are hiring at any given time. A candidate that researches companies heavily tells me that they are bored and desperate with lots of time to kill. It's not a trait I want in a candidate.
Blasting out resumes is no different than posting it online. It lets companies know that you are available and allows them to initiate conversations when they make sense. Not blasting holds back critical info for no reason.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
It would be nice if the candidate already studied the company, knows what it's about and what it does, and expresses desire to work in this exact environment and position.
Actually, I totally discount that. I want someone who loves what we are about, but to love or be really interested in a company that you don't work at I always feel is a bad sign or a weird sign. Sometimes it is okay, NTG is well known and people tend to come to us pretty excited about what we are about. We are pretty unique and pretty exposed in a way that is different than most companies. But as an enterprise hiring consultant, I always tell people not to look for people who are researching the company, that's not a logical thing for candidates to do, it has no real value, it's of no value to the company and it's generally misleading anyway.
It's passion for the field that we want, not passion for us. Passion for us is fine, but it's extra.
I've heard this both ways - you should research the company so you know it's a strong growing one that will be around, then i've heard that you should talk to others who work there to find out the real story of what it's like working there.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Another sign of passion might be work history. Where are the coming from and why?
Possibly, but if anything doesn't that tend to just reward people who grew up in areas with famous companies or reward people for working for well known companies rather than good ones. Lots of the best companies are small and you would not know them and lots of big ones sound good but are not (like I would not even accept an interview with Google because they are not a good shop, yet most people looking at resumes might think that they are more impressive than the high end financials that I've worked for that normal people don't know because they are the banking companies that run countries and pay double or more what Google does for the same jobs.)
I think judging people for passion based on where they have worked is very difficult at best and counter productive more likely. I'm not even sure how you could do it reasonably.
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@Dashrender said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I've heard this both ways - you should research the company so you know it's a strong growing one that will be around, then i've heard that you should talk to others who work there to find out the real story of what it's like working there.
Problem is, that kind of research is useless. You can't find that out. The health of a company is not public. That research time is wasted AND the health of a business is not a good indicator of if you want to work there. Its value to you or your career is not tied to its current success rate. Having worked for three decades, even if I know all about all the companies I have interviewed with, I have no idea how I could have used that information usefully.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I don't personally need a home lab for the stuff I work on in my spare time. Just a few programs and the odd VM spun up. But to be fair that's web dev and not classic IT.
And to be fair, that's a home lab.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
If all they want is money, the work won't matter as much. But if they really want the work, money won't be their top priority, but rather opportunity and training in the field.
I understand the point, but the most passionate people I know often follow the money. It might not be the money that matters, but money is the only comparable, reliable comparative between positions and the only sure way that you can protect against other unknowns in job changes. The amount of money that someone will pay is a good indicator of how much they value you, respect your opinion, will give you flexibility, will see you as an important asset, how well positioned you will be for moving to another job, etc. Because of how non-transparent the job world is, money becomes an important factor for things that aren't financial as well. So I would never use that in that way, money is too important for too many reasons. I know what you mean, but I don't think that you can easily use the desire for a raise as an indicator of anything. And you have to empathize, if they are more experienced now than the last time that someone hired them, and they are passionate, why would you not want to pay them more?
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@Breffni-Potter said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@JaredBusch said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@Minion-Queen said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I have fixed things from my IPhone before just so that I don't have to leave the bar. Totally worth it to take a couple more minutes and have it be slightly more frustrating to do.
Add me to the Been There Done That club. All glory to the smart phone and preserving my bar time.
Both me and others are probably curious, what type of issues do you resolve from a phone?
For me, almost everything (except for installing Linux on a laptop.) My work pushes 100% phone.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@art_of_shred -- But how does it work if you are out and about with no access to a laptop and a client has an emergency?
How does it ever work? You have multiple people with multiple layers of coverage. I might be needed on a Linux question, but I only need to talk someone through it. Or get on the phone with the customer. There is a difference between not being needed or available every moment, with not being flexible and working when it makes sense.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Another sign of passion might be work history. Where are the coming from and why?
Possibly, but if anything doesn't that tend to just reward people who grew up in areas with famous companies or reward people for working for well known companies rather than good ones. Lots of the best companies are small and you would not know them and lots of big ones sound good but are not (like I would not even accept an interview with Google because they are not a good shop, yet most people looking at resumes might think that they are more impressive than the high end financials that I've worked for that normal people don't know because they are the banking companies that run countries and pay double or more what Google does for the same jobs.)
I think judging people for passion based on where they have worked is very difficult at best and counter productive more likely. I'm not even sure how you could do it reasonably.
I'm just curious: How would an ideal candidate for NTG look like? For example: Would you hire me? Let's assume I would be a native English speaker and live somewhere near NY. I am a fast learner, have a real passion for IT, know a few things, have a home lab (both virtual and physical) etc. Worked for all kind of companies from 1 to 70.000 employees in a lot of different sectors (ISP, Shipbuilding, Regenerative Energy, Media, EDU, ...) and also as a freelancer. Oh, and no fancy degrees or certs.
This is a hypothetical question, just want to understand what you expect from a candidate.
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Being in NY or a native english speaker isnt required.
I would first want to take a look around at your online presence. We would have many informal interviews and at least have one formal one.
For NTG being able to fit into out family is super important. We have a really unique setup and are a bit "interesting" to get to know.
The rest is all about learning your passions again skills can be taught.
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@thwr said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I'm just curious: How would an ideal candidate for NTG look like?
Early 20s. Bikini model. I mean if we are looking for ideal.
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@thwr said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Let's assume I would be a native English speaker and live somewhere near NY.
That would actually hurt. Hiring in NY we try to avoid.
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@thwr said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I'm just curious: How would an ideal candidate for NTG look like?
Early 20s. Bikini model. I mean if we are looking for ideal.
Ok, well, I have at least some awesome stories to tell in this direction.
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There really isn't an ideal "NTG" person. It just isn't that kind of company. NTG has values, but we are a very disparate team. In age, background, location, history, etc. You'd often be shocked by who fits and who does not. Some of the things that we look for...
- Passion. NTG was founded and exists to be a platform for IT people to do amazing IT work. It's a company designed around doing IT. So doing IT for the sake of doing IT is pretty important.
- Culture. We are wild, crazy, fun, hard core IT people. This is a casual environment when it comes to "can I wear flip flops and drink beer in the office" but anything but casual when it comes to the work that we do. We are results oriented, not rules oriented. It's very much a team and a family.
- Longevity. NTG doesn't intend to hire for a position. Sure, sometimes we need a certain skill, but rarely. We need the right people, not the right skills. We can teach you skills, we can't make you awesome. NTG hires for the long haul. It's not a "hire you to get through this project" thing. The mindset going into NTG is "this will be a two year test period to see if we all fit". Because most people don't, and I don't meant that NTG doesn't want most of them, lots of people decide that they can't handle NTG. It's not for everyone. But for the right people, it's the best job ever.
- Team. Being able to work on your own is important, but NTG is a cohesive whole. We work together because it's what makes us NTG. Being able to be a team member is important. But that doesn't mean needing to be managed.
- Self Starter. NTG is a team but there is no micromanagement and no one holds your hand. You need to teach yourself and motivate yourself.
- Assertive. We have a lot of outspoken people. You need to be able to hold your own.
- Public. NTG lives on social media, conferences, meetings, etc. We live our lives in public. Welcome to the totally exposed workplace.
- Live IT. NTG is the worst place ever for people who want to do set hours and shut down. Nothing wrong with that, but we aren't that company. This is a 100% work/life integration environment. We mostly work from home offices, we mostly work 24x7. It never shuts down. But that's not bad like it sounds. We also don't make you leave "life" to go to work. Kids in the office, beer for breakfast, Facebook all day, no vacation days, no sick days, you take what you need when it makes sense. Some people hate it because they see work as never stopping. Some people love it because they see life never being interrupted by work.
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All that sounds just wonderful to me!
Speaking of "researching companies", I don't know enough about what you do except that you're a service provider. It sounds like you don't service just one location though. You talk about flip flops in the office, but you don't hire locally? Do you all work remotely? Are the services you provide all cloud?
The reason I'm asking is now I'm more curious about your idea of "passion". You wrap a lot of passion in the idea of people fidgeting with a home lab. You reject most other options. If the best definition of "passion" is that the person loves doing tech just as much on hours as off hours, I think I do.
Before I was married with kids, most days I'd come home from work and end up at a LAN party, gaming, programming, or rebuilding computers, etc. It would be Christmas if someone wanted to dump their old router or something, yeah I can try dd-wrt!
With family, I still want to retreat in the office and fiddle with stuff all night, but just can't spend my time that way. Wife doesn't want computers set up all over the house and CAT-5 running all over the floors. But it doesn't mean I don't have that desire to keep doing tech and learning things and tinkering at home.Anyway based on your description of an ideal candidate, I'd say it fits me. I don't mind the "on call" nature of working in IT, after all things can break at any time and businesses expect to be back up as fast as possible, it's a given. What I don't like is the pressure of the time frame when it happens. What if I happen to be camping with the family and we just hopped on a boat? The only option is 1) stop everything and run to a hot spot or where I can get a signal etc or 2) declare 'welp I can get to that in about 6 hours or 3) I don't know what else? I know I won't be able to enjoy the boat any more knowing I've got an issue hanging over me.
One time we had an issue that started at about 3am, some sites were defaced and the index file replaced. My phone just happened to have died or something, not on charger, and I slept in (on a Sunday). Well by the time I was aware of the problem and had it fixed an hour later, I got chewed out and blackmarked for not having fast enough turnaround time on my time off (I'm the only tech).
I'm okay with the idea of keeping a phone around most of the time, and doing some work when it's needed. But I'm not ok with the idea that if there is no signal or the phone dies or I'm in a movie theater and don't answer for a couple hours, that my head will be on the chopping block.
Anyway, do you hire in Arizona by chance
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
All that sounds just wonderful to me!
It sounds wonderful to at least twice as many people than who actually end up liking it in reality
But yes, it was designed to sound great to a certain group of people (like me as well, that's why I'm here.)For some, I think just the shock of working for a company like NTG is a bit much. There tends to be a lot less of a framework for support. The people are there to support you, but the corporate handholding is pretty much zero and people kind of freak out from the abstractness of it all.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Speaking of "researching companies", I don't know enough about what you do except that you're a service provider. It sounds like you don't service just one location though. You talk about flip flops in the office, but you don't hire locally? Do you all work remotely? Are the services you provide all cloud?
So NTG does a few things. I'll try to give an elevator pitch, but I've done this three times this week and it's never quite right. But...
- NTG is an ITSP, basically an outsourced IT department and/or IT department augmentation service for SMB organizations. So more or less an MSP, but not a reseller (except for Webroot AV, I think that that is the only thing that we resell. We are an O365 partner but not a reseller and don't get paid for that, so not even kind of like a reseller.)
- NTG is an MMSP, a Meta MSP. Basically an MSP to MSPs. A company that smaller or lower end MSPs can turn to for escalation, coverage, assistance, or whatever.
- NTG is a bespoke software engineering house. This is where we started but this is now nearly phased out. We make our own software, you don't hire us to make software for other people. But we make SaaS applications for the medical industry since the 1990s, it's how we started.
- We are an R&D firm, doing research, writing, publishing and similar services for the industry. Still IT, just not IT directly but indirectly.
We are more or less location agnostic. We are legally based in Upstate NY but do not like to hire in NY for many reasons (taxes, lack of local customer options, etc.) We work all over the US including PR, and we regularly service locations such as Canada, UK, EU (France, Spain and a few others I know we've worked in for sure), Mexico, Panama, Brasil, and others that I don't likely remember. We have an NTG partner that handles the UAE as well.
Not everyone works remotely, but mostly everyone does. I do most of the time, but not today. I'm normally in Europe, but this week I'm in the main office in NY. But even being here local, I had to put in hundreds of miles of driving to go see customers that were very far away while I was around. So "local" isn't so meaningful.
We are definitely not primarily cloud except for that one SaaS portfolio item that is minor and most of our own staff are not even aware of it (go ahead, ask @Mike-Davis if he even knows its name, that's how unknown it is even internally.) And yet it's been in continuous production for sixteen years with some pretty impressive clients. We mostly do remote services for customers, but when needed we do local work as well. We just often drive or fly someone in for that when it comes up.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
The reason I'm asking is now I'm more curious about your idea of "passion". You wrap a lot of passion in the idea of people fidgeting with a home lab. You reject most other options. If the best definition of "passion" is that the person loves doing tech just as much on hours as off hours, I think I do.
I really don't, it's just that I struggle to find ways to gauge passion otherwise. And it's "home lab", not home lab, really. If it's doing development at home, having lab gear on a laptop with VMs, a colocation facility, using Vultr or whatever... that's all "home lab" to me (or close enough.)
So yes, I'm really using the words "home lab" to mean more "loves doing tech off hours" combined with an aspect of "learning" in that time. Not just fidgeting, but actively attempting to learn.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Anyway based on your description of an ideal candidate, I'd say it fits me. I don't mind the "on call" nature of working in IT, after all things can break at any time and businesses expect to be back up as fast as possible, it's a given. What I don't like is the pressure of the time frame when it happens. What if I happen to be camping with the family and we just hopped on a boat? The only option is 1) stop everything and run to a hot spot or where I can get a signal etc or 2) declare 'welp I can get to that in about 6 hours or 3) I don't know what else? I know I won't be able to enjoy the boat any more knowing I've got an issue hanging over me.
And that's why companies like NTG (and tons of others, we aren't special here) have teams. I've worked in the Wall St. banking space and we had the same stuff. 24x7 on call (I went eight years on call without a break, actually!) but we had teams so someone was taking that call, but that I was on a boat or at dinner or whatever means that the call desk would either gauge how long until I could get to it or find someone who was actively available or figure out that I had to drop everything and do it anyway (I was the final point of escalation, so unlike everyone else, I always had to drop everything if no one else could.) But that team nature meant that even though I was on call 24x7x365x8 I only rarely took calls (maybe once a week on average) and many of those were just that, calls, not big deals. It might have been nothing more than me approving a change, double checking a warning or some such.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I'm okay with the idea of keeping a phone around most of the time, and doing some work when it's needed. But I'm not ok with the idea that if there is no signal or the phone dies or I'm in a movie theater and don't answer for a couple hours, that my head will be on the chopping block.
That's one of the aspects and passion and culture that is important to us. It can't be just one passionate, always on guy (or gal) dealing with that. It has to be everyone. When everyone has that mindset, we don't need any given person to never disconnect, because we have a "cloud" of support. We back each other up, we work together for coverage. And yes, that means that right now I could post to our Yammer page and very likely several people would see it because they were up and checking their phones, but it's not like those people can't enjoy their evenings, generally they like that our lives don't split at the end of the work day.
It's a weird thing, some people feel that it is like never getting to not work. But when you fit this culture, it's more like we never have to work.
