How to Balance Standards - Work and Personal
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@scottalanmiller said:
Now, why anyone would still ask for that advice is beyond me, but everyone is aware of the relationship and what it means for you, for them and for the kind of advice that can be given.
This is where I have say - while everyone MIGHT understand this when you sit down with them one on one and give them this full explanation - but I think reality clearly shows that very few people actually ever want into a store and consciously understand this. They are probably closer to this understanding when they walk into a single vendor store, like an Apple store or a Chevy dealer, but when they walk into a Best Buy - yeah I bet if you polled 100 people that 80%+ would probably tell you they expect the sales person to tell them which widget is really the best for the money, etc and that recommendation should have no barring on the company.
Of course, just because those 80% believe this doesn't make it so. I'm not sure if you, Scott, actually believe the consumer thinks this way or should think this way?
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@Dashrender said:
Of course, just because those 80% believe this doesn't make it so. I'm not sure if you, Scott, actually believe the consumer thinks this way or should think this way?
Well I certainly believe that they should, of course. But I also believe that they do, just they have not thought about it enough to articulate it. But if you ask careful questions I think you would get them to consciously respond with this answer, within reason.
I'm not suggesting that all or even normal salespeople are out to screw anyone - while I believe very, very strongly in this social contract I also use that term because I feel it is critical in understanding that the salesperson is doing absolutely nothing wrong and acting ethically and as everyone understands that they should (even if they have not thought about putting it into words.)
Things that I believe everyone knows and would confirm if asked correctly:
- That the salesman is employed by the store.
- That the store makes all of its money through sales.
- That the salesman also makes off of his money through sales (whether commission or salary, doesn't matter.)
- That the salesman is a representative of the store.
- That different products have different profit margins (this one I feel is more debatable as to common knowledge.)
- That the store has limited products that it sells (often only what is in the store or on its website.)
- That the salesman and the store can only sell the items that the store has.
- That the salesman has an obligation to his employer to do the job he is hired to do.
- That the store has a business obligation to make money.
- That the salesman will only sell products from the store (or its online equivalent, whatever.)
- That the salesman is a salesman and paid only through sales.
And in nearly all cases I think you would get people to agree with these:
- Salesman are not technical experts and have little access to that kind of training.
- Salesman are often young and inexperienced. (Everyone has a niece or nephew or kids who do these jobs it seems. We almost all see this from both sides, even if we have not done these jobs ourselves.)
- Salesman generally (when we are talking consumer items) earn a very low wage, much smaller than that of experts in their field.
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People understand all of the components that make salespeople act the way that they do, I believe. I've almost never met someone who claimed to expect a salesperson to act in a different way, many just don't care. And that's fine, it's up to the individual.
Salespeople have an important role to play and add a lot of value. Go into Staples and you need someone to tell you what comes in the box, which features are included, help you choose between two models that the store sells, etc.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that. Doing more and then being told to stop doing that more and continuing to do so anyway - means he's disrespectful and unable to take instruction and should probably be let go. You are there to do the legal job you are told to do. Period.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
The store employs the hi-fi equivalent of AJ - people who are simply passionate about the products and passionate about making customers happy.
I've used some of these stores too, quite extensively. But I always knew that the staff were ultimately salespeople and would always encourage me to buy stuff (which I did) and would limit recommendations to things that they sold. Within those confines of accepted social obligations, often they were extremely helpful (if and only if I carefully selected only the very highest end stores with epic profit margins on the gear - every other store in the region was staffed with clueless people who had no ability to assist.) But it didn't change the basics, they were still trying to sell things and only the things that they stocked.
One of the differences is that a very high end shop (of any type) will select what they sell as part of the value. A really good shop will sell gear that most generally will not. When you go into a Best Buy, for example, they don't carry high end gear, so there is little way to have passionate people working there because they don't sell the stuff people would be passionate about.
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that. Doing more and then being told to stop doing that more and continuing to do so anyway - means he's disrespectful and unable to take instruction and should probably be let go. You are there to do the legal job you are told to do. Period.
Exactly. Unless, of course, a higher up authority reverses this decision. Any given manager, lead, supervisor could be wrong. But there is opportunity for verification and correction. That is not forthcoming, however. Which once they decide not to correct it, means it is correct, at least for the time being.
Would you want employees deciding that you are an idiot and they should decide how to do their jobs even after you have explicitly told them not to do something in a certain way? What if they think that they know more than you do? What if they go to your boss and try to get clarification (I believe you stated that you do not appreciate if this happens.)
If you don't feel that AJ should go through his immediate boss to his boss' boss, then I would say the buck has stopped and the decision is clear.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Well I certainly believe that they should, of course. But I also believe that they do, just they have not thought about it enough to articulate it.
If they haven't thought enough to articulate it, what makes you believe that they've considered it at all?
Things that I believe everyone knows and would confirm if asked correctly:
- That the salesman is employed by the store.
- That the store makes all of its money through sales.
- That the salesman also makes off of his money through sales (whether commission or salary, doesn't matter.)
- That the salesman is a representative of the store.
- That different products have different profit margins (this one I feel is more debatable as to common knowledge.)
- That the store has limited products that it sells (often only what is in the store or on its website.)
- That the salesman and the store can only sell the items that the store has.
- That the store has a business obligation to make money.
- That the salesman will only sell products from the store (or its online equivalent, whatever.)
- That the salesman is a salesman and paid only through sales.
I agree with all of these, people pretty much probably realize these things without even really a conscious thought.
But this one- That the salesman has an obligation to his employer to do the job he is hired to do.
While of course they know this to be true as well, but we as consumers don't know what the sales person is hired to do, other than sell us stuff - but it could also be, to steer their customers toward the highest profit margin items possible, the consumer just doesn't know.
And in nearly all cases I think you would get people to agree with these:
- Salesman are not technical experts and have little access to that kind of training.
- Salesman are often young and inexperienced. (Everyone has a niece or nephew or kids who do these jobs it seems. We almost all see this from both sides, even if we have not done these jobs ourselves.)
- Salesman generally (when we are talking consumer items) earn a very low wage, much smaller than that of experts in their field.
I'm not sure you'll get most people to agree with this. But then again you might.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Salespeople have an important role to play and add a lot of value. Go into Staples and you need someone to tell you what comes in the box, which features are included, help you choose between two models that the store sells, etc.
Why do I need someone to tell me what comes in the box? Can't I read what comes in the box on the side of the box?
And if the sales people are really that untrained, how could I ever expect them to provide any assistance on choosing between two models? you already said they aren't trained or experienced enough to do so... yet we all know that these non trained, inexperienced people do provide this advice every single day in placed like Best Buy, Staples, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
The store employs the hi-fi equivalent of AJ - people who are simply passionate about the products and passionate about making customers happy.
I've used some of these stores too, quite extensively. But I always knew that the staff were ultimately salespeople and would always encourage me to buy stuff (which I did) and would limit recommendations to things that they sold.
I agree that one would only ever expect to be sold something that is sold in the store they are standing (or their online counterpart). So guidance would only be toward this limited selection.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Salespeople have an important role to play and add a lot of value. Go into Staples and you need someone to tell you what comes in the box, which features are included, help you choose between two models that the store sells, etc.
Why do I need someone to tell me what comes in the box? Can't I read what comes in the box on the side of the box?
That's an excellent question. Often because you can't see the box and many stores sell things that are not available online (custom model numbers, etc.) so there is sometimes no means of knowing. but most of the time, customers are just lazy or cant figure out how to look things up, don't know what the terms mean, etc.
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@Dashrender said:
I agree that one would only ever expect to be sold something that is sold in the store they are standing (or their online counterpart). So guidance would only be toward this limited selection.
That alone changes the behaviour dramatically. People in IT routinely go to SAN vendors or SAN resellers and are surprised to find out that they were sold a SAN when it didn't apply to them. Are they really surprised? Or is that just a vocal reaction that they feel makes it socially acceptable to have not done their due diligence?
Socially acceptable failure has become a big thing. It's related, I think, to the idea of glorification of ignorance. There are whole categories of things that people do and know aren't good ideas but that it is social acceptable to simply claim ignorance and everyone appears to have agreed to ignore failings when they are centered around certain areas or behaviours.
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@scottalanmiller said:
What if they go to your boss and try to get clarification (I believe you stated that you do not appreciate if this happens.)If you don't feel that AJ should go through his immediate boss to his boss' boss, then I would say the buck has stopped and the decision is clear.
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding with moving up the chain - I think I said something to the effect that you have to be careful going over your boss's head. If the people above your boss agree with your boss, then your boss may decide to get rid of you because you are to much trouble, etc.
Perhaps a better way to approach it would be to ask your boss to bring in their boss so the three of you can have a conversation about it, and you can keep asking for this until you reach the top or one of those bosses tell you no, the buck stops with me.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Salespeople have an important role to play and add a lot of value. Go into Staples and you need someone to tell you what comes in the box, which features are included, help you choose between two models that the store sells, etc.
Why do I need someone to tell me what comes in the box? Can't I read what comes in the box on the side of the box?
That's an excellent question. Often because you can't see the box and many stores sell things that are not available online (custom model numbers, etc.) so there is sometimes no means of knowing. but most of the time, customers are just lazy or cant figure out how to look things up, don't know what the terms mean, etc.
And in these cases I consider those customers getting what they deserve
a la your social contract. Ultimately I do believe in your social contract idea, even though I disagree that most people realize they are agreeing to it... -
@Dashrender said:
And if the sales people are really that untrained, how could I ever expect them to provide any assistance on choosing between two models? you already said they aren't trained or experienced enough to do so... yet we all know that these non trained, inexperienced people do provide this advice every single day in placed like Best Buy, Staples, etc.
Yes, they provide horrible guidance most days. But generally people just need "something" and never actually double check the advice. Obviously the average person at Staples or Best Buy has literally no capability to give this advice at all. Requesting technical guidance from a person who is a salesperson is fine, if you have reason to believe that you have already limited your selection to a range in which that person has scope AND if you have reason to believe that person has the specific knowledge that you seek. This almost never applies to Best Buy or Staples. The people who generally work there, including AJ's boss, have likely zero idea about the products, differences, values, quality, needs of the customer, how to elicit that information, incentive to learn, obligation to learn, etc.
Honestly, asking any advice in a store like that is truly a bad idea. Sure, you might get AJ, but unless you know the person you are getting to give advice, you are doing something very foolish.
I've seen people at Best Buy ask questions and get told things that are obviously wrong (does this have optical input? And the guy says no even though you can see the input right there physically in front of you.)
A really common case in the audio world is basically every Best Buy level guy will tell you to use TOSLINK fiber for audio because it sounds better. Yet there is no science or logic to this, it's a myth of people who don't know how digital communications works. Yet anyone who knows the science behind it or just applies general logic about very basic digital communications, and serious audiophiles, know that copper digital is better because it has fewer jitter issues because of the signally that is additionally available there (logic would tell you that they are likely the same as fiber has no advantage, science would fill in that the copper actually has the one little advantage.)
Go to any store of this nature, ask about fiber vs. copper. Universally they will get it wrong, yet anyone interested in audio knows that this is one of those "everyone not interested gets this wrong" things.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I agree that one would only ever expect to be sold something that is sold in the store they are standing (or their online counterpart). So guidance would only be toward this limited selection.
That alone changes the behaviour dramatically. People in IT routinely go to SAN vendors or SAN resellers and are surprised to find out that they were sold a SAN when it didn't apply to them. Are they really surprised? Or is that just a vocal reaction that they feel makes it socially acceptable to have not done their due diligence?
Socially acceptable failure has become a big thing. It's related, I think, to the idea of glorification of ignorance. There are whole categories of things that people do and know aren't good ideas but that it is social acceptable to simply claim ignorance and everyone appears to have agreed to ignore failings when they are centered around certain areas or behaviours.
They do? Those IT people are going to EMC, etc directly and saying "hey I need a storage solution"? I find that highly unlikely. It seems far more likely that they are going to Dell or CDW and those companies, both who claim they have teams dedicated to find the best solution for your situation (of course within the product lines that they sell). But do they? No, not generally. CDW was trying to sell me a SAN all the time. Clearly they have MANY solutions that would be significantly better for me, even it if was a single server with a ton of local disk.
I haven't decided yet if those vendors (Dell and CDW specifically) are breaking their social contract with us by promoting us to more than we need, and potentially much more dangerous solutions.
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@Dashrender said:
They do? Those IT people are going to EMC, etc directly and saying "hey I need a storage solution"? I find that highly unlikely. It seems far more likely that they are going to Dell or CDW and those companies, both who claim they have teams dedicated to find the best solution for your situation (of course within the product lines that they sell). But do they? No, not generally. CDW was trying to sell me a SAN all the time. Clearly they have MANY solutions that would be significantly better for me, even it if was a single server with a ton of local disk.
Well Dell, CDW, etc. are primarily SAN shops, that's their big money. Yes, they sell other things, but their big money is in storage. So in some ways, yes, people are going to primarily storage vendors. In some ways, you are correct, and this highlights how margins drive advice and even when you think that someone is giving good advice or broad advice, you need to avoid this situations because only in a case where you know enough to avoid needing advice, you know enough to not need the advice and anytime you need the advice, you almost certainly can't tell when the advice is poor or even reckless.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
And if the sales people are really that untrained, how could I ever expect them to provide any assistance on choosing between two models? you already said they aren't trained or experienced enough to do so... yet we all know that these non trained, inexperienced people do provide this advice every single day in placed like Best Buy, Staples, etc.
Yes, they provide horrible guidance most days. But generally people just need "something" and never actually double check the advice. Obviously the average person at Staples or Best Buy has literally no capability to give this advice at all. Requesting technical guidance from a person who is a salesperson is fine, if you have reason to believe that you have already limited your selection to a range in which that person has scope AND if you have reason to believe that person has the specific knowledge that you seek. This almost never applies to Best Buy or Staples. The people who generally work there, including AJ's boss, have likely zero idea about the products, differences, values, quality, needs of the customer, how to elicit that information, incentive to learn, obligation to learn, etc.
Honestly, asking any advice in a store like that is truly a bad idea. Sure, you might get AJ, but unless you know the person you are getting to give advice, you are doing something very foolish.
I've seen people at Best Buy ask questions and get told things that are obviously wrong (does this have optical input? And the guy says no even though you can see the input right there physically in front of you.)
A really common case in the audio world is basically every Best Buy level guy will tell you to use TOSLINK fiber for audio because it sounds better. Yet there is no science or logic to this, it's a myth of people who don't know how digital communications works. Yet anyone who knows the science behind it or just applies general logic about very basic digital communications, and serious audiophiles, know that copper digital is better because it has fewer jitter issues because of the signally that is additionally available there (logic would tell you that they are likely the same as fiber has no advantage, science would fill in that the copper actually has the one little advantage.)
Go to any store of this nature, ask about fiber vs. copper. Universally they will get it wrong, yet anyone interested in audio knows that this is one of those "everyone not interested gets this wrong" things.
Huh - didn't know that, but then again, I'm not an audio guy.
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@Dashrender said:
Huh - didn't know that, but then again, I'm not an audio guy.
Wouldn't expect non-audio people to know it as it is specific to the TOSLINK implementation. Basically it is the same as in IT, though. Just as its a silly myth that fiber Ethernet is superior to copper Ethernet. Unless you are protecting against interference or running really long distances, fiber is just more costly with no upsides. Fiber Ethernet does not have the jitter issues of TOSLINK so fiber to copper Ethernet are just equal rather than copper being better (other than price.)
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@scottalanmiller said:
In some ways, you are correct, and this highlights how margins drive advice and even when you think that someone is giving good advice or broad advice, you need to avoid this situations because only in a case where you know enough to avoid needing advice, you know enough to not need the advice and anytime you need the advice, you almost certainly can't tell when the advice is poor or even reckless.
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
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@Dashrender said:
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
Most important thing is avoid salespeople until you have the advice that you need!
