KVM or VMWare
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Maybe we need to level set on what "KVM talent" means.
In the context of support for an SMB, like is the context of this thread and to meet or beat what is expected of a Fortune 100 hiring standard KVM support staff, it is someone who can manage licensing, consult and system design, install and implement the bare metal install, storage setup, performance tuning, updates, patches, networking, at least consult on backups, essential monitoring and automation, troubleshoot issues with all of the above. The ability to work with multiple tools, to work from the command line, etc. and, most importantly, the ability to reach out to highly level support meaningfully if more is needed.
A low bar, but the bar for any baseline talent should be.
Yeah this just doesn't widely exist.
You still haven't pointed to any companies that provide KVM expertise (excluding yours because you're making the claim and truthfully I don't think you have it either).
I'm thinking about this - who's right? Do these skills exist in abundance out there or not?
I'm sure anyone can really accurately measure this?
How does a company find NTG? or any vendor who does support KVM - Google searches are generally trash in this regard - they are frequently limited to the huge companies who spend tons on advertising and search optimization.
So Scott could be right, the might be tons of talent out there, there might be tons of companies with that talent on-board, but how is one supposed to find those companies in the first place.
Yes, I know that's the job of the person in charge of IT....
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
Keep in mind, this thread is about a small IT team in a small business, a private school. The needs for all that stuff doesn't apply to them, at all.
Yet you somehow claim there's tons of KVM talent out there for them to pick from.
That was the whole point of all of this. The only people hiring KVM expertise are enterprises and mainly tech ones. Sure some companies like DO hire them but that's maybe only a handful since the company only has 500 some employees total.
The KVM talent is eaten up by large companies that pay them well because it's hard to do correctly. And with the current landscape it's getting more and more specialized. When I can spin up vms with kubevirt automatically and have it orchestrate and manage them for me, the uses for bare KVM are much smaller.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
So Scott could be right, the might be tons of talent out there, there might be tons of companies with that talent on-board, but how is one supposed to find those companies in the first place.
Because to make the claim you have to know where they are.
If I told you there's a pile of diamonds the size of a house somewhere but couldn't tell you where it was, would you believe me that it exists?
Anyone can make claims based on statements like "we see", "we know", etc but that doesn't mean it's true.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Because to make the claim you have to know where they are.
And this is where I've always run aground of the claims of Scott's saying there are tons of jobs out there or talent out there. I never see the crazy amount of known real job postings.
We've had several discussions of how many if not even most job listings are really nothing more than applications gathering campaigns for headhunters.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots and lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.
We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.
The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.
I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.
Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.
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@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.
We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.
The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.
I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.
Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.
CNCF doesn't mean public cloud. It's about the fastest growing open source 12 factor native applications. I never said all companies are on public cloud. I said companies want cloud native tooling. Those are two very different things.
Edit: not sure what happened but I somehow I posted with the keyboard accidentally before I was done typing.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.
We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.
The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.
I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.
Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.
CNCF doesn't mean public cloud. It's about the fastest growing open source 12 factor native applications. I never said all companies are on public cloud. I said companies want cloud native tooling. Those are two very different things.
Edit: not sure what happened but I somehow I posted with the keyboard accidentally before I was done typing.
I did however say "on prem servers", but didn't mean the only other option was public cloud. I was driving and didn't explain well. I meant that as legacy virtualization.
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@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free! -
@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.
List price is $576. At $50,000 a year salary that's only 15 hours of troubleshooting of any other tool before you make that back. Plus you get the benefits of easier automation, better integrations with other tools, etc.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.
List price is $576. At $50,000 a year salary that's only 15 hours of troubleshooting of any other tool before you make that back. Plus you get the benefits of easier automation, better integrations with other tools, etc.
Right, and you'd never make that back in an SMB. That's my point. And there is no support at that number. YOu have to pay more to get support. And the licensing takes time. All things you can never make back because other products in the SMB work so well, require so little support... their TCO is so much lower than spending extra to them have the same or higher ongoing support cost just doesn't make any sense.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.
It's not that it is hefty, it is that it is not justifiable since it doesn't lower any costs anywhere else. A bad decision is a bad decision, using "but it isn't a big bad decision" isn't a good logical step to ever take.
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@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And "not free" is rarely "actually cheaper." That KVM takes less time and effort to support than VMware is being overlooked. VMware doesn't have some magical "easier to support" just because you pay for it. In fact, we often use more support just in the process of buying the VMware license than KVM requires in total.
The mantra that "the more you spend, the less you spend" is one of the craziest things in IT. There is some bizarre sales tactic that has promoted the idea that just by raising the cost on things, that they are actually cheaper. Trying explaining that to the CFO.
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@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.
We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.
The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.
I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.
Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.
I agree. IT is a huge continuum of solutions with many, many axes. On prem, hosted. Cloud, VM, even physical. Modern apps, client-server, web, fat clients. Automated, manual. It goes on and on. And even withina single company there are after many of these and sometimes, all of them.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Because to make the claim you have to know where they are.
And this is where I've always run aground of the claims of Scott's saying there are tons of jobs out there or talent out there. I never see the crazy amount of known real job postings.
We've had several discussions of how many if not even most job listings are really nothing more than applications gathering campaigns for headhunters.
Postings tell us literally nothing of what skills exists. Only what skills someone is posting about, which may or may not be related to what is being hired. Even ignoring that almost all job postings are fake, knowing how many positions require "VMware" written by some HR person tells us nothing. Tons of people want CIsco skills for non-Cisco shops, VMware skills because they confuse that with cloud, and so forth. ANd those jobs might be temporary, or it's a small aspect of the job.
If you produce a billion job postings asking for VMware, that doesn't tell me that there is a single real job out there. If you fail to produce any, it doesn't tell me that everyone doesn't need VMware. It's not that it's the opposite, it just tells us completely nothing.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Yet you somehow claim there's tons of KVM talent out there for them to pick from.
Because there is plenty. Just in this thread there is a lot. I'm not saying that KVM skills couldn't run out if everyone decided to go that way. I'm saying that the idea that there is a shortage is absurd. It's so easy to find support, I run across people who do it constantly and every firm that I know that does it has loads of capacity.
We can reverse it... if you don't believe that all the KVM people hoping for work don't exist... how are we to know that VMware people exist? The logic goes both ways.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
I'm thinking about this - who's right? Do these skills exist in abundance out there or not?
I'm sure anyone can really accurately measure this?No one can prove the amount. What I know for certain is that I find KVM resources continuously, many are good, all would be happy for more work. No one is reporting a shortage of people, only of places needing people. Not because so little KVM is in use, but because it requires so little support. And because any trained Linux admin can do KVM, so the number of people supporting it is one of the biggest in the industry for any type of system. Not the biggest, but up there.
On the contrary, anytime a customer has VMware issues, we get them because they can't get skilled VMware people and they know that we can handle it. We know it takes more time and is more risky because we do both and we know that they have loads of issues because of it (often because they refuse to pay the required licensing as too expensive.) No one ever says to us "we're using you because we can't find KVM people", we are always fighting for work against other KVM shops, but VMware, people keep coming to us because they fail to find people who actually know it beyond just installing and hoping for the best.
Tiny cross section and I'm not suggesting any shortage of VMware people. But anyone with a serious MSP already will have KVM skills just by the nature of general coverage (and VMware too, keep in mind.) Sure, finding a real MSP takes work as the market is full of scammers, but assuming that that is due diligence that you need to do anyway, getting KVM (or VMware) support should be a non-issue.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
So Scott could be right, the might be tons of talent out there, there might be tons of companies with that talent on-board, but how is one supposed to find those companies in the first place.
There's no answer to this right now, IMHO. It just sucks. But the issue I think gets easier for KVM and Linux vs. Windows and VMware because of all the reasons that we've talked about previously... harder to fake it, less buzz-wordy, more discerning customers. Looking for VMware support you'll find millions of websites, and almost no skills behind them. Looking for KVM support you'll find very few websites with even less skills behind them, but a way, way better ratio. Filtering through it is so much easier.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
Free isn't always free!And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.
List price is $576. At $50,000 a year salary that's only 15 hours of troubleshooting of any other tool before you make that back. Plus you get the benefits of easier automation, better integrations with other tools, etc.
Right, and you'd never make that back in an SMB. That's my point. And there is no support at that number. YOu have to pay more to get support. And the licensing takes time. All things you can never make back because other products in the SMB work so well, require so little support... their TCO is so much lower than spending extra to them have the same or higher ongoing support cost just doesn't make any sense.
It's 15 hours, you would def make that back in an SMB. Automation is much easier through VMware. I've done both. It's much easier with VMware, easily more than 15 hours a year.
The licensing does not take time. It's an automatic credit card purchase.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.
We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.
The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.
I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.
Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.
I agree. IT is a huge continuum of solutions with many, many axes. On prem, hosted. Cloud, VM, even physical. Modern apps, client-server, web, fat clients. Automated, manual. It goes on and on. And even withina single company there are after many of these and sometimes, all of them.
And this means what? There are still companies that use mainframes. I worked for one. Doesn't mean they should be.
