Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Nobody puts PowerShell on Linux to manage only Linux. It's put there to automate MS/Windows management or to automate MS/Windows and Linux management together more efficiently from the same tool.
You kicked off with this statement. But this makes no sense given your understanding now that whatever is on Linux is just calling whatever is on Windows. Do you see how this led us into a discussion specifically about Bash on Linux controlling PS on Windows? That's the only logical place to go when this statement is where you started.
That was in reference to what you said in the video. You said something along the lines of putting powershell on Linux just to manage Linux. I thought that's silly and responded as such.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
That was in reference to what you said in the video. You said something along the lines of putting powershell on Linux just to manage Linux. I thought that's silly and responded as such.
Yes, but it's not silly, hence the problem. You are injecting somethings that cause problems.
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You think that using PowerShell to manage Linux is silly. It's not, there are solid reasons for it and it works fine. So making weird, confusing statements as a round about way to try to state that this is silly won't work. It just makes you not make sense. It's fine to not agree with the reasons that people have for wanting this, but acting like it isn't desired doesn't work.
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Given the logic that you are using for point 1, it would also automatically rule out using PowerShell on Linux to manage Windows remotely for the same reason - that it is silly and not as good at it as Bash. But that you rule out one scenario based on that logic, and not the other, means that you must be holding some belief or knowledge about PS' abilities that I can't get you to state and that's what I've been asking for this entire time.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
When managing a remote system, any remote system, there are always two shells involved minimum. One shell from which you call, and one shell to which you call. There is no way to have fewer as shells are required to present the OS from one OS to the other.
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
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And when it comes to wanting PowerShell on Linux, that's something that we at NTG really wanted. So it's not a theoretical case, it's because PS has some features that we want and don't want on Windows. But sadly, right now, PS on Linux isn't as complete as PS on Windows and we have to use Bash on Linux to call PowerShell on Windows to get as close to this as possible. It's still better than PS to PS, and better than using Windows directly, but not even close to as good as fully functional PS on Linux would be and we hope will be someday.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
You think that using PowerShell to manage Linux is silly.
That is not what I said at all. I said using PowerShell to solely manage Linux, from Linux with no other purpose is silly. That's what I meant. If I want to only manage Linux, I'll use Bash. If there are other services or software in the mix that would make running PowerShell on Linux worth it, then sure. But that was never mentioned. All you said was there was Linux, and to run PowerShell on Linux with no other purpose or reason for powershell.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Or to state it in the clearest way I can possibly think of....
When calling PS on Windows from Linux, what do you feel that PS on Linux does that Bash on Linux doesn't do just as well, or better?
You mean running double PowerShell?
When managing a remote system, any remote system, there are always two shells involved minimum. One shell from which you call, and one shell to which you call. There is no way to have fewer as shells are required to present the OS from one OS to the other.
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Okay, so finally a use case.
Remote Windows system management. Yes, then it would make sense to have PowerShell on your Linux system for that purpose. But then you are remoting to and managing Windows. That was not what my point was about.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Yes, then it would make sense to have PowerShell on your Linux system for that purpose. But then you are remoting to and managing Windows. That was not what my point was about.
We've been around this circle several times already. I've pointed out ad nauseum that it does not make sense in this use case as it does this more poorly than Bash does. We specifically use Bash for this as it is better at it than PowerShell.
I've asked many times now, why you feel it would be better. Because you have to have something that you think that PowerShell does that you aren't stating, and have to be ignoring when I keep saying that I can't find anything that it does better, and many things it doesn't do as well.
So given that it seems completely clear that we've established that remote Windows administration can't be a logical reason for wanting PowerShell on Linux, why do you then skip all of that discussion and act like this is a new use case, or a logical one when we've established so clearly the opposite?
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
And when it comes to wanting PowerShell on Linux, that's something that we at NTG really wanted. So it's not a theoretical case, it's because PS has some features that we want and don't want on Windows. But sadly, right now, PS on Linux isn't as complete as PS on Windows and we have to use Bash on Linux to call PowerShell on Windows to get as close to this as possible. It's still better than PS to PS, and better than using Windows directly, but not even close to as good as fully functional PS on Linux would be and we hope will be someday.
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
Since it doesn't do that, that wouldn't make any sense. We wanted it for app management of apps that use APIs only available in PS, but not for Windows management in any way. Obviously, we want Bash for Windows management, it works better.
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I don't know why someone would want PS for remote Windows management. Specifically because I don't know why, and because you keep implying that there might be a reason, I keep asking what reason you feel that is. I'm positive this is at least the sixth time I've directly asked this one single question.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Double PowerShell is not better than Bash plus powerShell. That is what I heard you say in the video. That's what prompted my response, then you started injecting bad assumptions.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
So yes, when is double PowerShell better then Bash + PowerShell?
Double PowerShell is not better than Bash plus powerShell. That is what I heard you say in the video. That's what prompted my response, then you started injecting bad assumptions.
What assumption have I injected? I've never wavered in any way that double PS is worse than Bash + PS. I've been 100% rock solid on that.
I'm not aware of any assumptions. I'm asking you to clarify why you've been implying that double PS has an advantage. I've made it clear why, from testing, we found that it didn't. But you seem to believe we've missed something. Absolutely possible. but why not share what that is if you feel you know of something?
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Two things I've never switched up on...
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That there are real, and decently obvious, reasons why people would want PowerShell on Linux for purposes of Linux or other non-Windows management.
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That I can't find any benefit to PS on Linux for the purpose of managing Windows as Bash seems to do everything as well or better than PS in testing.
These are both the opposite of what you have stated.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
Since it doesn't do that, that wouldn't make any sense. We wanted it for app management of apps that use APIs only available in PS, but not for Windows management in any way. Obviously, we want Bash for Windows management, it works better.
Now there's a circle if I ever seen one. PowerShell on Linux to manage Linux apps through an API that can only be managed by PowerShell?
I was thinking more along the lines of running a PowerShell script. You have to choose a server to run it on. I'd rather run it for free on Linux, rather than pay for a Windows Server license.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
Since it doesn't do that, that wouldn't make any sense. We wanted it for app management of apps that use APIs only available in PS, but not for Windows management in any way. Obviously, we want Bash for Windows management, it works better.
I was thinking more along the lines of running a PowerShell script. You have to choose a server to run it on. I'd rather run it for free on Linux, rather than pay for a Windows Server license.
But you can run that in Bash, Python, etc all better than PS. Ps offers no advantages.
Of course if you WRITE the script in PS, it has to run in PS. But you'd not write it if you aren't using it. And the script that does the work has to run on the Windows box, not Linux, so just use Bash for a better experience.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Now there's a circle if I ever seen one. PowerShell on Linux to manage Linux apps through an API that can only be managed by PowerShell?
Where is the circle? A shell to manage an app that can only be managed that way... sounds like any app, really.
It might sound like a circle if we get the false sense that PS is a Windows tool and not just a shell. But it is just a shell and works on Linux just like anywhere else and is, sadly, the sole management platform supported by some SaaS apps. But there is no circle at all, just dumb apps that only interface with one shell. But Windows isn't involved in any way, and PS on Linux would be the ideal solution.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Now there's a circle if I ever seen one. PowerShell on Linux to manage Linux apps through an API that can only be managed by PowerShell?
Where is the circle? A shell to manage an app that can only be managed that way... sounds like any app, really.
It might sound like a circle if we get the false sense that PS is a Windows tool and not just a shell. But it is just a shell and works on Linux just like anywhere else and is, sadly, the sole management platform supported by some SaaS apps. But there is no circle at all, just dumb apps that only interface with one shell. But Windows isn't involved in any way, and PS on Linux would be the ideal solution.
What doesn't use Rest API? Sounds like a horrible service and app.
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@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@scottalanmiller said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
Why did you want PowerShell on Linux? For better remote Windows management?
Since it doesn't do that, that wouldn't make any sense. We wanted it for app management of apps that use APIs only available in PS, but not for Windows management in any way. Obviously, we want Bash for Windows management, it works better.
I was thinking more along the lines of running a PowerShell script. You have to choose a server to run it on. I'd rather run it for free on Linux, rather than pay for a Windows Server license.
But you can run that in Bash, Python, etc all better than PS. Ps offers no advantages.
Of course if you WRITE the script in PS, it has to run in PS. But you'd not write it if you aren't using it. And the script that does the work has to run on the Windows box, not Linux, so just use Bash for a better experience.
Not if the PowerShell script interacts with things BASH does not interact with as well or efficiently as, or not at all with.
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@Obsolesce said in Shell Speeds, Bash and PowerShell:
What doesn't use Rest API? Sounds like a horrible service and app.
Most things don't use a Rest API. Rest is nice, but most stuff doesn't use that. That's extremely modern and if you work with MS products, you rarely get things that are modern or well designed. Hence this entire discussion of a shell that should never have existed at all, and yet it does. Same principle.
