DNS Update Issue
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
If you had read what I wrote originally, I did say that I used nslookup, which only worked when the primary DNS server was available. But nslookup would fail otherwise, even though other DNS servers were responding to DNS requests. I have to logs to prove everything. You're idea of which tool is correct for the job is incorrect.
Only nslookup can do the job for this test for reasons both you and I pointed out. Ping can't be used because you have to flush manually first, thereby making the test useless. You pointed this out, so no need to argue with me for having read when you wrote and repeating it back.
If nslookup totally fails, this means Windows isn't working at all and I'm confident that that is not true. Something else is wrong. It's not reasonable to believe that Windows cannot do DNS lookups ever to secondary DNS servers without resorting to other tools and manual intervention, we've all seen this work so your test must be mistaken. It's like saying the sky isn't blue because you did a test, while we can all look out the window and know that that isn't possibly true. So the test has to be wrong.
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
Ping is not a useful testing mechanism because it hits the cache.
Ping does not hit the cache on the computer I'm testing from because I cleared the DNS cache.
I know, thereby corrupting the test and making it useless.
Dude, i looked at the fucking debug logs on the DNS server itself, i KNOW it used the DNS server when I pinged, every damn time. I still have the logs to prove it. I pinged stuff by NAME, not IP. When you ping stuff by name, it uses DNS to look up the IP....
Also, I was pinging random servers and such, NOT the DNS server.
And, what does what you said have to do with the problem? Nothing you said here addressed the issue that we are discussing. You clearly stated you used the wrong tool, and clearly stated that you had to flush the DNS and corrupt the test because you used the wrong tool, after that all of your responses are to someone who isn't here, because they are unrelated to what I've been saying.
Just do the test again with the proper tool and without corrupting it. The DNS servers logs are obviously useless here as we already know the test wasn't done correctly so what you see tells us literally nothing.
The test was to see which DNS server is being used and when.
Sure, but not in a scenario we cared about. So the test was for you, not for this thread. What you tested is not what we discussed. You need one without flushing DNS to test what WE have been discussing. Unless you do that, this test should be its own thread and shows us nothing we didn't already know.
Working on a new test and much clearer description of the test and results.
Stick with nslookup and no flushing. If you flush, it's not a test for this thread. Only a test of a real world scenario will matter. Everything you've done so far is what we all already agreed on.
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
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The test should be...
- Flush DNS before the test
- nslookup X
- Do #2 several times.
- Kill the DNS server used in steps 2 & 3
- nslookup X
- Do #5 several times
- Restore DNS server from steps 2 & 3
- nslookup X
- Do #8 several times.
That's the test. Any pings tell us nothing, any flushes corrupt the test and mean none of the results are useful or valid.
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
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Results will be different from a member and a workgroup computer?
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@black3dynamite said in DNS Update Issue:
Results will be different from a member and a workgroup computer?
Will they? How does Window's DNS usage change based on that?
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
It looks like there is a flaw in Windows. Surprise surprise.
I cannot use NSLOOKUP if the primary DNS server is unreachable. However, DNS queries to the secondary DNS server DO work, but the NSLOOKUP tool does not.
So, to recap, when the primary DNS server is down, DNS works fine with the secondary DNS server. But for some reason, the NSLOOKUP tool on the test computer doesn't try to use the secondary DNS server, although everything else does.
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
It looks like there is a flaw in Windows. Surprise surprise.
I cannot use NSLOOKUP if the primary DNS server is unreachable. However, DNS queries to the secondary DNS server DO work, but the NSLOOKUP tool does not.
So, to recap, when the primary DNS server is down, DNS works fine with the secondary DNS server. But for some reason, the NSLOOKUP tool on the test computer doesn't try to use the secondary DNS server, although everything else does.
So I will have to flush the local DNS cach (only in the beginning), and PING hosts that are not yet cached locally to get the client to perform DNS lookups.
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Confirmed:
The NSLOOKUP tool only uses the primary DNS server, period, unless you specify otherwise manually. So, not a good tool for testing the scenario of this thread. All other apps use the secondary DNS server, but not NSLOOKUP. -
So, @scottalanmiller , back to using PING again, because it's the easiest way to get hte computer to make DNS requests. No flushdns is required after the initial ones if i"m using different and uncached hostnames to get the client to perform DNS lookups.
Edit: Nirsoft has a DNS lookup tool, I'll try that
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
It looks like there is a flaw in Windows. Surprise surprise.
I cannot use NSLOOKUP if the primary DNS server is unreachable. However, DNS queries to the secondary DNS server DO work, but the NSLOOKUP tool does not.
So, to recap, when the primary DNS server is down, DNS works fine with the secondary DNS server. But for some reason, the NSLOOKUP tool on the test computer doesn't try to use the secondary DNS server, although everything else does.
That's seriously messed up. So nslookup is just broken? So there is no proper query mechanism to know what the machine would definitely see?
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@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
So, @scottalanmiller , back to using PING again, because it's the easiest way to get hte computer to make DNS requests. No flushdns is required after the initial ones if i"m using different and uncached hostnames to get the client to perform DNS lookups.
Edit: Nirsoft has a DNS lookup tool, I'll try that
Okay, so if we avoid the cache, and check logs to see what ping is doing...
Did it behave the same, with an automatic failover and, more importantly, fail back?
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This is how
nslookupshould work.. Thanks Windows..You can see here that my router's DHCP scope is set to give clients 10.254.103.4 and then 10.254.103.1
You can see that `nslookup used .4 immediately.
I then shutdown the Pi-Hole on .4
and tried the lookup again, without ever exiting
nslookup.It used the secondary, with a small delay while the primary timed out.
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@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
It looks like there is a flaw in Windows. Surprise surprise.
I cannot use NSLOOKUP if the primary DNS server is unreachable. However, DNS queries to the secondary DNS server DO work, but the NSLOOKUP tool does not.
So, to recap, when the primary DNS server is down, DNS works fine with the secondary DNS server. But for some reason, the NSLOOKUP tool on the test computer doesn't try to use the secondary DNS server, although everything else does.
That's seriously messed up. So nslookup is just broken? So there is no proper query mechanism to know what the machine would definitely see?
You would be correct. Windows is more stupid than we knew.
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@JaredBusch said in DNS Update Issue:
This is how
nslookupshould work.. Thanks Windows..You can see here that my router's DHCP scope is set to give clients 10.254.103.4 and then 10.254.103.1
You can see that `nslookup used .4 immediately.
I then shutdown the Pi-Hole on .4
and tried the lookup again, without ever exiting
nslookup.It used the secondary, with a small delay while the primary timed out.
Exactly, it should only stick with the primary if the primary is specified, that's what the specification is FOR. Otherwise, it doesn't give a real world query as is its purpose.
It's clearly skipping part of the stack that it is supposed to be testing.
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@JaredBusch said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
@scottalanmiller said in DNS Update Issue:
@Obsolesce said in DNS Update Issue:
I did not use the wrong tool. When you ping something by hostname, it WILL do a DNS lookup.
Only if it is not cached. As YOU pointed out. So you know this isn't true.
In this next test, I will ping stuff that is guaranteed not to be locally cached.
WHY are you still pinging? We've established it cannot be used for anything to do with this thread.
When you ping something by host name only, it performs a DNS lookup... contacting a DNS server to get the IP address of the target, so that it can ping.
STOP!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT PINGING DOES.
What we don't understand is why you think repeating information no one has disputed changes the situation.
It looks like there is a flaw in Windows. Surprise surprise.
I cannot use NSLOOKUP if the primary DNS server is unreachable. However, DNS queries to the secondary DNS server DO work, but the NSLOOKUP tool does not.
So, to recap, when the primary DNS server is down, DNS works fine with the secondary DNS server. But for some reason, the NSLOOKUP tool on the test computer doesn't try to use the secondary DNS server, although everything else does.
That's seriously messed up. So nslookup is just broken? So there is no proper query mechanism to know what the machine would definitely see?
You would be correct. Windows is more stupid than we knew.
I, apparently, have been giving it way too much credit.
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powered the Pi-Hole back on and look..
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Going to get my daughter's Surface running Windows 10 to verify for everyone.
