Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?
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@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
So do you mean someone like a CIO/CTO would be contacted by a vendor and be offered some sort of compensation in order to steer their company into contracting that vendor?
The money comes directly from the employer. But it is enabled by the vendor. The vendor reaches out and offers to do the CIO's job for them, silently for free, in exchange for the CIO looking the other way while they screw the company. This is how nearly every company operates because IT is so hard to hire.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
but knowing the people I know at my company (a very close circle of friends and family) I am very inclined to think that this is not the case -- and if anything, it's only ignorance that lead to these choices. I could be wrong though.
That's a scenario I see this happen in a LOT. "Close friend" doesn't know what to do. Vendor offers to cover for them and do their IT job on their behalf and not let the company find out that they were in over their head. The vendor provides a way for the "friend" to keep their job and get paid. Then the "friend" fixes it so that the vendor makes a fortune selling something insanely inappropriate. The "kickback" is handled in the form of the paycheck, but the paycheck is enabled by the vendor playing along and not exposing the gap. The vendor ensures that the "friend" keeps getting money, the "friend" makes sure that the vendor makes 200% - 1,000% of the money that they should.
Incompetence really isn't an excuse. If someone doesn't know what they are doing, they should admit it. Pretending and selling the company out to the vendor to cover for them is the problem. So if you feel someone was incompetent and threw the company under the bus.... well we can discuss semantics if that is truly a kickback or another mechanism, but the result is the same.
I never remember to keep this example at the tip of my tongue... Scott - I think you should completely drop the kickback statement from your discussion and ONLY use this lengthy, yet easy to understand example instead.
Though you should expand upon it to include something like, the owner was to lazy, incompetent to ensure he hired the correct vendor/consultant, etc to get the right thing for the company.
In many, I have to assume my customer's case as well, the owner went to a VAR and said - I need a solution for my new distribution company - and the VAR said -- hey, I sell these IBM things. The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story. -
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
I will need to make sure I remember that and try to correct everyone I work with who calls it that... lol
They'll just be confused. If they are calling it that, they are pretty lost and are just repeating things they've heard and have no idea what it really is. Most people don't know the first thing about them and call them that. Avoid those people
mmm yeah well that is the lady who's in charge of the main application for which the iSeries is the back-end of. She does not know anything and calls it AS400 on the reg.
Well... yes, the people who know nothing always call it AS/400
Well it is confusing as shit how IBM has changed names and stuff..
There is a reason. These systems are absolute garbage and people only buy them when they have no choice (therefore the confusing bit doesn't matter) or they are confused (so the confusion is the REASON that they get sold.) The confusion, I assure you, is intentional. The entire "i" market is people that were seriously confused.
How in the effing hell would they not have a choice???
> Politics. Someone higher up got a kickback for using the gear is a very common scenario.
You seem to constantly be saying this, and I'm sure it's somewhat common...
It's one of the most common things we see in the industry. Someone taking a personal benefit in order to justify making a horrible decision for the business. I say it constantly because it is constantly what we see. Whether it is a direct financial kickback, or just getting favours of some sort.
So do you mean someone like a CIO/CTO would be contacted by a vendor and be offered some sort of compensation in order to steer their company into contracting that vendor? Isn't that 100% illegal?
Ever heard of a VAR? This is the business model for nearly the entire IT industry. It's never said in so many words, because it doesn't have to be. Every CIO/CTO knows the game, every vendor plays it, and it is 100% legal. It's so common, so accepted in fact, that I've seen people on other IT communities get openly mad when caught doing it and openly said that they would retaliate against their employers for expecting them NOT to do this!
Yeah I have heard of a VAR. The only VAR I know of is my Dell VAR and I usually only deal with him a few times a year. I don't doubt that you are wrong, but I don't really understand the game you are talking about. Can you sort of elaborate?
I'll put it in a different thread.
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@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story.
Knowing something about IT is irrelevant. It's knowing anything about BUSINESS that would protect him.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story.
Knowing something about IT is irrelevant. It's knowing anything about BUSINESS that would protect him.
I'm not sure how you know this leap?
assuming he knows nothing - and hires someone to do it, because he knows nothing.... how does he know the hire (be it internal or external) is doing a good job? Who can he hire to audit the first guy/company and know those aren't crappy people too? -
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
bend your mind and talk about system 36.
I decommissioned a System 36 in 2016. Was in use until 2015 when they migrated. At which point they kept it online for a year "just in case".
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@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story.
Knowing something about IT is irrelevant. It's knowing anything about BUSINESS that would protect him.
I'm not sure how you know this leap?
assuming he knows nothing - and hires someone to do it, because he knows nothing.... how does he know the hire (be it internal or external) is doing a good job? Who can he hire to audit the first guy/company and know those aren't crappy people too?There is no leap at all. The leap is thinking that a CEO needs technical knowledge to know what an ethical business practice looks like. You don't have to be a cop to know what a holdup is, you don't have to be an accountant to know what taking bribes is, you don't have to be in IT to know what an unethical business deal is. It's all just basic business.
The CEO's job is to hire someone and make sure that they are doing their job. The issue here isn't doing a bad job, it's not doing the job at all.
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@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
A what?
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@jaredbusch said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
bend your mind and talk about system 36.
I decommissioned a System 36 in 2016. Was in use until 2015 when they migrated. At which point they kept it online for a year "just in case".
lol - I'm in a similar boat with an AIX box. I think this won was put in in 2003 though, replaced on installed in 1995. The current box was mostly decom'ed in 2013 when we change EHRs, but we still have it due to data requirements for regulations.
A year ago we started looking to actually move away from it, but time contraints on the boss made it impossible. Recent renewed interest in killing this box has been moved forward by myself.... there's a good chance we will be turning it off in July. The vendor we purchased it from (and still pay monthly for the software it runs) has told us they will send someone to collect the box when we stop paying for the software. -
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
A what?
https://www.itjungle.com/2008/08/26/fhs082608-story01/
https://i.imgur.com/FaB9UOc.png
The company I worked for briefly in 2001 sold these for more than just Domino. -
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story.
Knowing something about IT is irrelevant. It's knowing anything about BUSINESS that would protect him.
I'm not sure how you know this leap?
assuming he knows nothing - and hires someone to do it, because he knows nothing.... how does he know the hire (be it internal or external) is doing a good job? Who can he hire to audit the first guy/company and know those aren't crappy people too?There is no leap at all. The leap is thinking that a CEO needs technical knowledge to know what an ethical business practice looks like. You don't have to be a cop to know what a holdup is, you don't have to be an accountant to know what taking bribes is, you don't have to be in IT to know what an unethical business deal is. It's all just basic business.
The CEO's job is to hire someone and make sure that they are doing their job. The issue here isn't doing a bad job, it's not doing the job at all.
Honestly it seems like nobody really knows what they are doing -- and not only that, but everyone seems like everyone who thinks they know something, loves to claim that situations/setups/installations/other things are set up incorrectly/improperly by the previous other people.
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@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
A what?
https://www.itjungle.com/2008/08/26/fhs082608-story01/
https://i.imgur.com/FaB9UOc.png
The company I worked for briefly in 2001 sold these for more than just Domino.The article says $50K, not $5K. And it never says what this is. Do you have any reference to the actual product somewhere?
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@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
The owner not knowing ANYTHING about IT, said - um ok.. and bought it. end of story.
Knowing something about IT is irrelevant. It's knowing anything about BUSINESS that would protect him.
I'm not sure how you know this leap?
assuming he knows nothing - and hires someone to do it, because he knows nothing.... how does he know the hire (be it internal or external) is doing a good job? Who can he hire to audit the first guy/company and know those aren't crappy people too?There is no leap at all. The leap is thinking that a CEO needs technical knowledge to know what an ethical business practice looks like. You don't have to be a cop to know what a holdup is, you don't have to be an accountant to know what taking bribes is, you don't have to be in IT to know what an unethical business deal is. It's all just basic business.
The CEO's job is to hire someone and make sure that they are doing their job. The issue here isn't doing a bad job, it's not doing the job at all.
Honestly it seems like nobody really knows what they are doing -- and not only that, but everyone seems like everyone who thinks they know something, loves to claim that situations/setups/installations/other things are set up incorrectly/improperly by the previous other people.
Lots of people know what they are doing, but they don't tend to work in the SMB market and those that do, work as consultants because there is no SMB that needs one full time.
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@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
-- and not only that, but everyone seems like everyone who thinks they know something, loves to claim that situations/setups/installations/other things are set up incorrectly/improperly by the previous other people.
Here's the problem that the industry faces - 90% of systems ARE totally garbage. Most companies run on house of cards systems that are super risky and were way too expensive when put in.
What is difficult is that if you are an expert and are brought in to fix things, nearly everything you see will be garbage that needs to be replaced. If you are a yahoo who is just trying to sell gear and make a quick buck, you'll say the same thing.
If we assume that my example of how VARs use a kickback-like mechanism to incentivize heavily unethical behaviour from IT managers is true, then what you see is exactly what is expected.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
A what?
https://www.itjungle.com/2008/08/26/fhs082608-story01/
https://i.imgur.com/FaB9UOc.png
The company I worked for briefly in 2001 sold these for more than just Domino.The article says $50K, not $5K. And it never says what this is. Do you have any reference to the actual product somewhere?
no, I can only tell you what my sales persons told me back in 2001. I wasn't in sales, it was just a conversation - I asked - why are our clients buying these expensive ($20+ AS/400 - iSeries) things for a 5 person shop? Answer: - they are buying $5K Bumblebees. Not that it was a real answer - I knew nothing of that side of things, I was mostly into desktop support at that time, so I let it go.
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@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dashrender said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Let's assume he dropped 15K on in, do you think he could have hired a programmer to create a from scratch solution on Linux OS with free DB solution for that kind of money?
You can't buy this stuff for ANYWHERE close to $15K.
Bumble Bee servers could be had for $5K in the early 2000's.
A what?
https://www.itjungle.com/2008/08/26/fhs082608-story01/
https://i.imgur.com/FaB9UOc.png
The company I worked for briefly in 2001 sold these for more than just Domino.The article says $50K, not $5K. And it never says what this is. Do you have any reference to the actual product somewhere?
no, I can only tell you what my sales persons told me back in 2001. I wasn't in sales, it was just a conversation - I asked - why are our clients buying these expensive ($20+ AS/400 - iSeries) things for a 5 person shop? Answer: - they are buying $5K Bumblebees. Not that it was a real answer - I knew nothing of that side of things, I was mostly into desktop support at that time, so I let it go.
So what we gather from that is is that Bumblebee was something he was selling but that no one knows what it is now (I Googled, I'm getting nothing but that gibberish article or things referencing it) and that it is NOT an AS/400. That's not much to go on.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
@dave247 said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
-- and not only that, but everyone seems like everyone who thinks they know something, loves to claim that situations/setups/installations/other things are set up incorrectly/improperly by the previous other people.
Here's the problem that the industry faces - 90% of systems ARE totally garbage. Most companies run on house of cards systems that are super risky and were way too expensive when put in.
What is difficult is that if you are an expert and are brought in to fix things, nearly everything you see will be garbage that needs to be replaced. If you are a yahoo who is just trying to sell gear and make a quick buck, you'll say the same thing.
If we assume that my example of how VARs use a kickback-like mechanism to incentivize heavily unethical behaviour from IT managers is true, then what you see is exactly what is expected.
I'll grant you the kickback "idea" from your post - but really, please try to find a better term. There is to much baggage on kickback that your argument just gets lost.
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@scottalanmiller said in Disaster Recovery as a service companies that support IBM iSeries / AS400 systems?:
Oh. My. Fucking. Balls.
This accurately describes my boss (the company's CIO/CTO).
Fuck.
