Dipping Toes Into Programming
-
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Python is good for learners. And good for system scripting or local interfaces.
JavaScript is good for server applications.
What kind of project are you considering?
Basically, I would like to be able to create something like Saltpad, or at least enough to be able to fork something like that and take it in a custom direction I would like, but not necessarily having to do with SaltStack. That's just an easy example that poked my dormant interest, or got me started thinking about it. Same goes for SodiumSuite.
It seems my first step would be learning Javascript, even though Python seems easier for learning.
I do have a side-interest in web applications and web design, so I think I would get the most benefit out of Javascript. My main joy is IT, so of course any programming I learn would be geared towards being leveraged for IT usage.
-
I was comparing some different IDEs for JavaScript, and unless someone can get WebStorm for free, it looks like Visual Studio Code is the real winner.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
I was comparing some different IDEs for JavaScript, and unless someone can get a free copy of WebStorm, it looks like Visual Studio Code is the real winner.
Yes, we definitely consider VS Code the big winner, with Atom being the second place contestant (Code is built from Atom, so Atom sort of wins anyway) against those. @QuixoticJeremy and I were just discussing WebStorm vs. VS Code last night, as he uses both. And he feels that they are pretty evenly matched - not considering the price. But with one being free and open, and the other being expensive and closed, it's a clear win on the Code side.
-
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Python is a great first language, lots of practical uses too. Python + Django would get you creating your own web apps. Python + Tryton and you can create your own ERP
Oh yeah, you can do anything with it.
-
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
Python is a great first language, lots of practical uses too. Python + Django would get you creating your own web apps. Python + Tryton and you can create your own ERP
I did a search on Django + Python + REST API... this looks very interesting as well, maybe even preferable.
It led me to this: https://scotch.io/tutorials/build-a-rest-api-with-django-a-test-driven-approach-part-1
and this: https://scotch.io/tutorials/build-your-first-python-and-django-applicationSo now what I need to know is what are the benefits of going Python/Django vs JavaScript for what I'm looking to achieve?
Why are some, such as the Saltpad project, using JavaScript instead? Why may they not have chosen Python?
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
So now what I need to know is what are the benefits of going Python/Django vs JavaScript for what I'm looking to achieve?
Why are some, such as the Saltpad project, using JavaScript instead? Why may they not have chosen Python?
Python: More traditional, object oriented general purpose language. Can only be used on the server, not the client. DJango is an old framework. Model is based around core engine speed.
JS: Less traditional, prototype "specific purpose" language. Used for both the server and the client work. NodeJS is a very modern framework that relies on a non-blocking model for performance.
-
Without me knowing so much about this at this point, which makes more sense to use in the way I wish to use it?
Mostly for my reference later when I have time, below:
Python
Flask vs Django:
https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/flask-vs-django-why-flask-might-be-better-4xs7mdf8vPython WebFrameworks:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworksJavaScript
JavaScript Frameworks:
https://hackernoon.com/5-best-javascript-frameworks-in-2017-7a63b3870282ReactJS vs AngularJS:
https://da-14.com/blog/reactjs-vs-angular-comparison-which-better -
Honestly PHP is probably your best bet.
-
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
-
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
-
Many of my programmer friends have recommended this: https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ if you're interested in Python specifically
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@flaxking said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g
Flask is an unassuming simple framework. It is good for creating something simple, or for creating something complex and cutting edge where you need flexibility. In order to build out a webapp, you would need to learn more components than just Flask.
Django is a monolithic framework, batteries are included. You just have to learn Django in order to build a web app. You don't have to create things from scratch, but there are certain ways to do things, so there is less flexibility. It takes longer to learn Django, because there is so much more there. But when you do learn it, you can pump out web apps pretty fast. With Flask there are other things you have to learn, and you have to figure out how you want them to interact.
Once you have a decent amount of Python, you can learn at least the basics of Flask in a day, and then look at learning Django too.
If you're interested in messing around with Salt, I think Python is the way to go. Salt's code is pretty easy to understand and work with for junior devs, and you can start making your own customizations.
Thanks for the explanation, it helps a lot.
This narrows it down to the following:
- Python / Django
- JavaScript / ReactJS
ReactJS is just an interface layer, it's not a framework like Django.
Yes I'm not as worried about having a full framework like Django for JavaScirpt. ReactJS seems to hit all the check boxes I'm looking for though.
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. And at that point, it may be that I change my mind and want something else once I understand everything much better.
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
I wouldn't even start touching ReactJS until I would be well into JavaScript anyways. .
The selection of language would never lead to a change in desire for a framework. Frameworks are identical regardless of the language uses. JS gives you nothing that Python doesn't. So if you want a framework with one, you want it with the other. If not with JS, then not with Python either.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
-
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
From my understanding, Python doesn't do jack for front-end output on a web page without something like Django... where as JavaScript can be put into whatever existing pages you have... be it WordPress (or WP plugin), a simple HTML5 page (simply display the JS where you want), your own stuff, or whatever.
-
The web browser will run it. But with Python, I can't call a python script to be displayed on a webpage from my HTML code for example.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@scottalanmiller said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
With Django, I would start both at the same time, as my focus would purely be on the web side first, I think.
Why treat them so differently?
From my understanding, Python doesn't do jack for front-end output on a web page without something like Django...
That's incorrect. Django is just a framework. Python has to render HTML for you to see a webpage. Django is just Python. So anything Django can do, Python can do. The end result is using Python to write HTML and hand it to a web server to display.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
... where as JavaScript can be put into whatever existing pages you have...
That's true, but unrelated. So in the way you describe it, Python and Django would produce your JavaScript. So if you want to use JS in the way that you describe, JS itself does nothing for you. You need Python or something to output the JavaScript to go into the browser.
So in the way you are thinking of it, JS does nothing for you. Or you need JS in both cases equally and you still need to make the server component.
-
@tim_g said in Dipping Toes Into Programming:
...a simple HTML5 page (simply display the JS where you want), your own stuff, or whatever.
When making a web app, there are two places that code goes... the server and the client.
The server side is the only side we ever talk about, ever. It's the app, the part that matters. It's what talks to the database, where we talk languages, where things matter. This is where all the work is done.
The client side, in a web app, is always HTML and JavaScript. But we are never talking about this JS when we talk about languages. JS is the only language that runs here, there are no other choices, so it's never discussed. This part of your app is trivial and generally ignored when discussing it in this context.
No matter what you use as your server side code, it has to generate HTML and JS for the client side code. You can use Python, Ruby, Perl, Java, C#, JavaScript or any number of thousands of languages on the server side. But the output of all of them has to be HTML and JavaScript in order for the output to be a web app.
