Small Shop Hyperconverged Options
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@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Having backup at all adds complexity. It's not that simple of a question.
There are two pieces...
- Is it part of virtualization - demonstrably it is not.
- is it good to do - that's totally by circumstance, it is not always possible. Of the times it is possible, only sometimes is it good. Often, but far from always.
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@coliver said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Wouldn't you install the agent in your gold image?
Depends. Agents are rarely all the same, I can't do it that way so not for us.
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@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
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@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
When it works for you, but it doesn't work universally so carries a big risk that people will just use it and not ensure that they have reliable backup methodologies. But agents aren't that much heavier and are also free. And agents can be even lighter.
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@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
When it works for you, but it doesn't work universally so carries a big risk that people will just use it and not ensure that they have reliable backup methodologies. But agents aren't that much heavier and are also free. And agents can be even lighter.
As part of our upcoming DR solution, this must needs be discussed
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@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
When it works for you, but it doesn't work universally so carries a big risk that people will just use it and not ensure that they have reliable backup methodologies. But agents aren't that much heavier and are also free. And agents can be even lighter.
As part of our upcoming DR solution, this must needs be discussed
Sorry, I've been reading too much fantasy lately.
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@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
When it works for you, but it doesn't work universally so carries a big risk that people will just use it and not ensure that they have reliable backup methodologies. But agents aren't that much heavier and are also free. And agents can be even lighter.
As part of our upcoming DR solution, this must needs be discussed
It's a great product and works for loads of stuff and things that it isn't totally reliable for it often works. But it has workloads for which it is not reliable (often ones that people don't think about) and it's a lot heavier than often necessary depending on your infrastructure. It's only really good... when other things are really bad.
Veeam and similar hypervisor level backups are great... as workarounds to lacking rapid rebuild or state systems. Basically, they are a truly amazing bandaid.
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@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
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@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
That goes back to the "good solution for a bad problem." If you have have a good build or state system, agents are light and easy. If you don't, they are a big pain.
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@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
It's not just that. You need to maintain the agents, there may be additional costs, more complex licensing etc
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I really think that the biggest piece of the puzzle comes down to if you have a quick, repeatable build process (good front loaded engineering.) If you have that then agents or whatever are trivially easy and work really well.
If you lack that and depend on imaging a running system for recovery, then what I feel are "kludge" backup systems like hypervisor level backups are ideal because you lack the design and planning to do other things well.
Doing both is often great so that you have both worlds. Hypervisor level makes for really simplified "restore to image" restores. Other methods are faster for storing and moving around the entire data set of critical data.
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@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
It's not just that. You need to maintain the agents, there may be additional costs, more complex licensing etc
You are relying on "might be"... it might be more complex and more costly. But it might be less complex and less costly. So that argument works equally in reverse.
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Yes, agents must be maintained. But you have to maintain an agentless infrastructure as well. Agentless doesn't lack agents, they just aren't in the OS.
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@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
Permit my ignorance please but, Veeam is lightweight, free, and bang -- full / incrementals over two-one week periods, out of the box.
When it works for you, but it doesn't work universally so carries a big risk that people will just use it and not ensure that they have reliable backup methodologies. But agents aren't that much heavier and are also free. And agents can be even lighter.
As part of our upcoming DR solution, this must needs be discussed
Worth watching as it relates here:
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@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
It's not just that. You need to maintain the agents, there may be additional costs, more complex licensing etc
You are relying on "might be"... it might be more complex and more costly. But it might be less complex and less costly. So that argument works equally in reverse.
So what are you using for backups? What kind of licensing? Which product?
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@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
It's not just that. You need to maintain the agents, there may be additional costs, more complex licensing etc
You are relying on "might be"... it might be more complex and more costly. But it might be less complex and less costly. So that argument works equally in reverse.
So what are you using for backups? What kind of licensing? Which product?
For the stuff I control, 99% is covered by a backup of GitLab. There are only a couple machines that get backed up. Most of it is done with the application specific backups, like Graylog using the Elasticsearch snapshotting capabilities or GitLab with it's built in backup. I've used ReaR to back stuff up before but mostly don't need it now.
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@stacksofplates said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scottalanmiller said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@thwr said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@scotth: I will deploy a hybrid SW two node cluster soon. Many other solutions use KVM under the hood, which means that you will have to either script something or do agent based backups.
With Hyper-V, you just use Veeam (or whatever you prefer)
I use agents regardless
And I don't know why, as it conterfeits some of the virtualization fundamentals, IMHO. But I don't want to start this discussion now.
It doesn't. That functionality is in no way part of virtualization or its value. It's just one of the many myths than people have mistakenly add to virtualization.
Even Veeam with Hyper-V/VMware.... there is no universal agentless capability. So if it was an intrinsic part of virtualization, that would imply no virtualization product has been made yet.
Don't you agree that adding agents to each and every guest VM adds to costs and complexity compared to a "simple" hypervisor based backup?
It shouldn't be that hard to use an deployment tool to install the agent.
It's not just that. You need to maintain the agents, there may be additional costs, more complex licensing etc
You are relying on "might be"... it might be more complex and more costly. But it might be less complex and less costly. So that argument works equally in reverse.
So what are you using for backups? What kind of licensing? Which product?
For the stuff I control, 99% is covered by a backup of GitLab. There are only a couple machines that get backed up. Most of it is done with the application specific backups, like Graylog using the Elasticsearch snapshotting capabilities or GitLab with it's built in backup. I've used ReaR to back stuff up before but mostly don't need it now.
Same here. GitLab and DB backup scripts. Don't pay for any backups at all.
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@stacksofplates @scottalanmiller
When backing up to Gitlab, is it incremental or differentials? -
@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@stacksofplates @scottalanmiller
When backing up to Gitlab, is it incremental or differentials?It's versioning. It keeps every change that you make. How it does it under the hood, they don't say.
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@black3dynamite said in Small Shop Hyperconverged Options:
@stacksofplates @scottalanmiller
When backing up to Gitlab, is it incremental or differentials?We use the self hosted. It’s just a job you run and it backs up the whole database. I’ve restored a couple times and it’s really easy. If you’re talking about Git itself, then it’s just version control.
