DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@scottalanmiller said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Can a road be used for good? Yes
Can a road be used for crime? YesCan DragonBox be used legally? Yes
Can DragonBox be used illegally? YesChange out road with car. Same result.
It's the person committing the crime, not the object.
Let's take your example 1 step further.
Can a gun be used for good? Yes
Can a gun be used for bad? YesCan a gun kill a person? No
Can a person wielding a gun kill a person? YesIf you make a gun easier to wield, then it's easier for people to be killed.
yet guns aren't illegal.
But selling stolen weapons is illegal!
Dragonbox isn't selling stolen content. Irrelevant.
You're right, its selling easy access to stolen content.
No, it's no more easy access than Windows or Ubuntu provides, or uTorrent or whatever.
Really, no more easy? Find me a PPV UFC fight tonight in 4K HD that I can easily just click "play" and not need to do anything else.
No, that would be illegal.
That is what this box offers.
So where is your argument here?
Many things offer that... the ease of which things can happen doesn't matter.
Yes it does. The ease is what makes this worth bringing to court. It's the ease of theft on potentially very massive scales that have businesses suing.
No, the ease is what makes tricking people into thinking this is bad, and therefore worth taking to court.
Again, DragonBox themselves didn't do anything illegal. They are the Car in your getaway driver example.. they are not the driver themselves.
DragonBox is literally the car, it makes the get-away possible and substantially easier than having to run on foot from the cops!
Not that cars are illegal, but the intent of use is what is illegal. A knife is no more a weapon until you intend it to be.
Thank you for making my point.. so do you now see why this box itself isn't illegal, or at least shouldn't be.
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@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@scottalanmiller said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Can a road be used for good? Yes
Can a road be used for crime? YesCan DragonBox be used legally? Yes
Can DragonBox be used illegally? YesChange out road with car. Same result.
It's the person committing the crime, not the object.
Let's take your example 1 step further.
Can a gun be used for good? Yes
Can a gun be used for bad? YesCan a gun kill a person? No
Can a person wielding a gun kill a person? YesIf you make a gun easier to wield, then it's easier for people to be killed.
yet guns aren't illegal.
But selling stolen weapons is illegal!
Dragonbox isn't selling stolen content. Irrelevant.
You're right, its selling easy access to stolen content.
No, it's no more easy access than Windows or Ubuntu provides, or uTorrent or whatever.
Really, no more easy? Find me a PPV UFC fight tonight in 4K HD that I can easily just click "play" and not need to do anything else.
No, that would be illegal.
That is what this box offers.
So where is your argument here?
Many things offer that... the ease of which things can happen doesn't matter.
Yes it does. The ease is what makes this worth bringing to court. It's the ease of theft on potentially very massive scales that have businesses suing.
No, the ease is what makes tricking people into thinking this is bad, and therefore worth taking to court.
Again, DragonBox themselves didn't do anything illegal. They are the Car in your getaway driver example.. they are not the driver themselves.
DragonBox is literally the car, it makes the get-away possible and substantially easier than having to run on foot from the cops!
Not that cars are illegal, but the intent of use is what is illegal. A knife is no more a weapon until you intend it to be.
Thank you for making my point.. so do you now see why this box itself isn't illegal, or at least shouldn't be.
It's not the box that is illegal, its the intent of the box which makes it illegal.
It's intended audience (based on the marketing) is to allow people to easily steal. That intention is what will kill this business and likely force the DragonBox owners to pay massive amounts of restitution or even jail time.
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Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?3
This isn't the case, the case would then be "Intent of enabling piracy".
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@scottalanmiller said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Can a road be used for good? Yes
Can a road be used for crime? YesCan DragonBox be used legally? Yes
Can DragonBox be used illegally? YesChange out road with car. Same result.
It's the person committing the crime, not the object.
Let's take your example 1 step further.
Can a gun be used for good? Yes
Can a gun be used for bad? YesCan a gun kill a person? No
Can a person wielding a gun kill a person? YesIf you make a gun easier to wield, then it's easier for people to be killed.
yet guns aren't illegal.
But selling stolen weapons is illegal!
Dragonbox isn't selling stolen content. Irrelevant.
You're right, its selling easy access to stolen content.
No, it's no more easy access than Windows or Ubuntu provides, or uTorrent or whatever.
Really, no more easy? Find me a PPV UFC fight tonight in 4K HD that I can easily just click "play" and not need to do anything else.
No, that would be illegal.
That is what this box offers.
So where is your argument here?
Many things offer that... the ease of which things can happen doesn't matter.
Yes it does. The ease is what makes this worth bringing to court. It's the ease of theft on potentially very massive scales that have businesses suing.
Again, the box doesn't do anything illegal until YOU tell it to. You can also tell it to NOT do illegal things.
That they are marketing it to criminals isn't illegal either. Nothing they are actually doing is illegal. Nothing at all, until a criminal manually makes/tells it to.
Enabling a person to perform a crime, means intent and makes that person an accomplice.
Nothing else you state can refute that. Just because someone may buy this box and never steal content doesn't mean that the 100's or 1000's of others who do steal content are right for doing what they are easily made capable of.
Then we better put you in jail - Dustin.. because if you helped one person get on the internet, you enabled them to perform a crime.
No, the intent is to assist someone getting connected, there is no intention to assist someone to do something illegal by connecting them to the internet.
You need to look at the intent!.
FFS dumbasses....
Intent in this case boils down to the advertising.. and I'll grant you, if it can be shown that the advertising crosses the line into inciting theft, then they have a case... But they have to cross the line.
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@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?
How do you see that it is not illegal? Do you live in Iran where theft is encourage?
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@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?3
This isn't the case, the case would then be "Intent of enabling piracy".
say what? Intent of theft - but not theft is a crime? So I intend to steal something from you.. but you're watching me to closely... so I don't steal from you.. but I'm still somehow a criminal? is that what you are saying?
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?
How do you see that it is not illegal? Do you live in Iran where theft is encourage?
Where do you see a law that states "intent to enable piracy" is illegal?
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FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or being punished for doing so).
Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
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@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?
How do you see that it is not illegal? Do you live in Iran where theft is encourage?
Where do you see a law that states "intent to enable piracy" is illegal?
Intent to steal, piracy is theft no matter how you look at it.
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@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?3
This isn't the case, the case would then be "Intent of enabling piracy".
say what? Intent of theft - but not theft is a crime? So I intend to steal something from you.. but you're watching me to closely... so I don't steal from you.. but I'm still somehow a criminal? is that what you are saying?
I'm just going by the definition of theft:
- A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.
But in this case, nobody is being permanently deprived of something. It's being copied. So theft isn't really the case.
But I'm talking about "intent" here. THere is no intent of theft. There could potentially be "intent of enabling copying".
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@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?3
This isn't the case, the case would then be "Intent of enabling piracy".
say what? Intent of theft - but not theft is a crime? So I intend to steal something from you.. but you're watching me to closely... so I don't steal from you.. but I'm still somehow a criminal? is that what you are saying?
I'm just going by the definition of theft:
- A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.
But in this case, nobody is being permanently deprived of something. It's being copied. So theft isn't really the case.
But I'm talking about "intent" here. THere is no intent of theft. There could potentially be "intent of enabling copying".
You don't have to have a permanent copy of something for it to be theft. This has been argued over and over again from many streaming services which stream music from artists without their consent.
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And in every case those streaming services are punished for providing content to which they don't have the right to provide.
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
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@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
The lack of enforcement or lack of laws preventing it is the same as encouraging it.
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@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@tim_g said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
Intent of theft is illegal, because it "permanently depriving the other of it". In the case of piracy, this is not the case.
Where do you see that intent of pirating digital goods is illegal?3
This isn't the case, the case would then be "Intent of enabling piracy".
say what? Intent of theft - but not theft is a crime? So I intend to steal something from you.. but you're watching me to closely... so I don't steal from you.. but I'm still somehow a criminal? is that what you are saying?
I'm just going by the definition of theft:
- A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and "thief" and "steal" shall be construed accordingly.
Right, so intent to steal is not a crime, only stealing is a crime.
But in this case, nobody is being permanently deprived of something. It's being copied. So theft isn't really the case.
Well - there might be legal definitions of theft that cope for copy write theft.
But I'm talking about "intent" here. THere is no intent of theft. There could potentially be "intent of enabling copying".
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
And in every case those streaming services are punished for providing content to which they don't have the right to provide.
Just for the record - I'm not saying gaining access to streams that are meant for subscribers alone is not theft... I do believe that it is a form of theft.
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
The lack of enforcement or lack of laws preventing it is the same as encouraging it.
OMG - no it is not!
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@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
The lack of enforcement or lack of laws preventing it is the same as encouraging it.
OMG - no it is not!
Paging @scottalanmiller
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@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
The lack of enforcement or lack of laws preventing it is the same as encouraging it.
If this is true, then MS encourages people to steal Windows Server CALs because they barely enforce and certainly don't prevent you from just using them.
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@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dashrender said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
@dustinb3403 said in DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright:
FFS I can't find the topic, but it was on Spiceworks where a guy posted a question asking where he can find microsoft license keys for Windows Server, and everyone (except for Scott and myself) was claiming he should go to jail.
From a first world POV, you're right, he should go to jail.
Yet what is legal in his area of the world, is illegal here. We can't enable him to steal (our laws prevent us from helping or
beingwe would be punished for doing so).Yet his laws actively encourage/reward it.
FTFY
I seriously doubt his laws actively encourage it. They either don't have laws against it or they choose not to pursue the laws they have.
Not the same thing at all.
The lack of enforcement or lack of laws preventing it is the same as encouraging it.
If this is true, then MS encourages people to steal Windows Server CALs because they barely enforce and certainly don't prevent you from just using them.
The fuck they do, read the damn documentation.
