Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD
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I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
I will be watching UBNT moving forward as a potential investor because I do really like their products and as their portfolio continues to evolve and grow, they could be more of a household name like Cisco, HP, and others not just us tech guys.
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report. So far, I don't think he's handled it fantastically, but he hasn't bombed either. It's a learning and growing experience for the company. People are always coming for you whether competitively or other reasons, so a strong CEO has to be able to handle these types of things.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
Sorry when I say "young company" I'm referring to their public life, which has been around 6 years. They've done excellent in those 6 years as well outpacing the market by a nice-sized amount. It's easy to see where they have more room to grow though so people/potential investors just want to be sure he's still got his eyes on the prize.
What harsh demands are you referring to? I'm not sure I've heard of any. But I agree in theory. As an investor, if I didn't think he was up to snuff I just wouldn't buy in. I'm not looking to get involved in who's the CEO, who's doing this and that, I just want to park my money and watch it grow. Let the company keep doing what it was doing when I invested and reap the benefits.
Harsh demands like interfering with his personal investment life. If he was using the time to go jogging, mountain climbing, watch movies, go on vacation, would people complain? What if he invested in Exxon, hotels or restaurnants, would people complain? Of course not. But if he watches sports or invests in sports, we get investors claiming he might not be focused? That's overreach that will make people start reconsidering representing the interests of those investors.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
Right, and until Citron is shown to be legit, he looks like a scammer. He's running a scam news business, trying to create panic for his own purposes, and his site looks like something from a Facebook ad. We've got a clear scammer here, Citron has a lot to prove before we even look at what he's claiming.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report.
Is there any pressure? I don't see any, that's the difference. I see no more pressure on him than I've put on Citron. How is Citron handling it? Not well. But what does that mean?
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Keep in mind UBNT is a 12 year old company. It's not a young company, it's well established. These are experienced people. If investors start making harsh demands without considering the value of the people making the magic happen, those peoplewill cash out and leave the investors to figure stuff out on their own.
Sorry when I say "young company" I'm referring to their public life, which has been around 6 years. They've done excellent in those 6 years as well outpacing the market by a nice-sized amount. It's easy to see where they have more room to grow though so people/potential investors just want to be sure he's still got his eyes on the prize.
What harsh demands are you referring to? I'm not sure I've heard of any. But I agree in theory. As an investor, if I didn't think he was up to snuff I just wouldn't buy in. I'm not looking to get involved in who's the CEO, who's doing this and that, I just want to park my money and watch it grow. Let the company keep doing what it was doing when I invested and reap the benefits.
Harsh demands like interfering with his personal investment life. If he was using the time to go jogging, mountain climbing, watch movies, go on vacation, would people complain? What if he invested in Exxon, hotels or restaurnants, would people complain? Of course not. But if he watches sports or invests in sports, we get investors claiming he might not be focused? That's overreach that will make people start reconsidering representing the interests of those investors.
There's a difference in "investing" where you're giving Exxon money, letting other people run it, and getting a check as a return based the size of your investment vs "investing" in a company that you now oversee and are responsible for. I don't care that it's a sports team, it's a $250 million - $1 billion dollar company. If he's just buying a majority stake and sitting back while others are running it and drawing a check, that's one thing. If he's going to be actively involved much like Mark Cuban is, an argument could at least be made that his splitting time is not in the best interest of Ubiquiti the company and its shareholders, and that maybe someone else should take the reins. Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I really hate when I see these forums on here get so lost in semantics, so let me just conclude by saying as of today, I don't believe Citron has much evidence to back their claims. Unfortunately, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" world and so that could hurt them temporarily while the dust settles.
Right, and until Citron is shown to be legit, he looks like a scammer. He's running a scam news business, trying to create panic for his own purposes, and his site looks like something from a Facebook ad. We've got a clear scammer here, Citron has a lot to prove before we even look at what he's claiming.
Although Citron hasn't been 100% correct in their claims, they have been accurate with a few, which lends even the slightest bit of attention. I'm careful not to use the word credibility, but attention. Investors and analysts alike have taken the evidence (or lack thereof) Citron presented, done their own analysis, and made their conclusion. Some may have sold, and some may have doubled down on UBNT. You yourself have stated you're not buying it for a second. Good for you. Others have been a little more cautious and looked into it. Big deal. Nothing wrong with some extra due diligence to protect your investment.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I will also be watching to see how Pera handles all the pressure coming to him from this report.
Is there any pressure? I don't see any, that's the difference. I see no more pressure on him than I've put on Citron. How is Citron handling it? Not well. But what does that mean?
I say pressure because I've seen many analysts come out and seek an explanation or defense from Pera on the allegations. Again, we live in a "guilty until proven innocent" culture, so although unfair, it's something he's had to deal with. They held an investor day to address some of the allegations and what I took away from the analysis of it was that he didn't knock the accusations out of the water. When you're company is being accused very publicly as a fraud and the accuser is calling you out on CNBC, every major investing publication is talking about it, and you're the CEO of said public company, there's some "pressure" there as you have to protect the company image.
Citron, on the other hand, has gotten more attention and is now trying to capitalize by shorting another popular company Spotify. In the near term, they win on publicity that it brings them. I believe long term, they'll lose and be seen as you say, a scam and boy who cried wolf.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
I say pressure because I've seen many analysts come out and seek an explanation or defense from Pera on the allegations.
But, any REAL analysts? Anyone is free to claim to be an analysit. It means nothing. I've seen nothing about this. I feel like there is no pressure, not real world pressure. Analysts don't matter, short sellers don't matter. It's just yahoos trying to get hits for their blogs or whatever.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Citron, on the other hand, has gotten more attention and is now trying to capitalize by shorting another popular company Spotify. In the near term, they win on publicity that it brings them. I believe long term, they'll lose and be seen as you say, a scam and boy who cried wolf.
No, America doesn't work that way. No one remembers you long enough to point out that it was a scam. It's clearly a scam, look at his site, there's no question at all. He's not legit in any way. His audience isn't people who can afford to invest, it's people just looking to make noise.
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
You're kidding right? you can easily dive into those sports as much as one can dive into running a company (especially mountain climbing).
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@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
When you're company is being accused very publicly as a fraud and the accuser is calling you out on CNBC, every major investing publication is talking about it, and you're the CEO of said public company, there's some "pressure" there as you have to protect the company image.
Yeah, but like I keep saying, I accused the company accusing him of fraud. No one cares.
I've not seen a single publication of merit talking about it. The company looks great, I think, that only clearly fraudulent outlets have been talking about it. What legit publication has made mention of it?
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@dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
You're kidding right? you can easily dive into those sports as much as one can dive into running a company (especially mountain climbing).
Exactly. Those things take very big as much time as running a company, and no one said he was running another company, just investing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
You're kidding right? you can easily dive into those sports as much as one can dive into running a company (especially mountain climbing).
Exactly. Those things take very big as much time as running a company, and no one said he was running another company, just investing.
I imagine its healthier than most CEO hobbies...
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Here is Forbes' take on it: "Morningstar analyst Ilya Kundozerov, who has covered Ubiquiti for about a year and had the stock as a hold as of Aug. 29, told me: "The guy [Pera] doesn't pay much attention to the analysts. What he cares about is putting a good product out the door." Kundozerov said he doesn't think these allegations will have any long-term impact on the business."
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More from Forbes: "Ubiquiti does not have a marketing or sales department, to which Kundozerov said, “This is not the substantial evidence to call the company a fraud.”
Basically, Citron doesn't know business and just spouts off. Buffoons trying to get attention.
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Also worth noting, while the stock did drop after the fake report, it rebounded right back and has been unaffected by it. So I think that the news outlets are blowing smoke. The investors clearly don't have concerns here.
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Yeah its just a shame I didnt have any money available to put into Ubiquity when they dropped. Could have got some slightly cheaper stock. I am not worried about any of these allegations.
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@jmoore said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Yeah its just a shame I didnt have any money available to put into Ubiquity when they dropped. Could have got some slightly cheaper stock. I am not worried about any of these allegations.
Yup, I wonder if that isn't what Pera was hoping too
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@dashrender said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
Buying and running another company isn't comparable to jogging, mountain climbing, vacationing, or any of the other examples you used.
You're kidding right? you can easily dive into those sports as much as one can dive into running a company (especially mountain climbing).
Haha no I wasn't kidding. Yes you can get super serious about biking, running, etc but for the majority of people, it's a hobby. It's something you do a few times a week after or before work for pleasure.
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@scottalanmiller said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
@zachary715 said in Notorious Short-seller labels Ubiquiti Networks $UBNT as FRAUD:
When you're company is being accused very publicly as a fraud and the accuser is calling you out on CNBC, every major investing publication is talking about it, and you're the CEO of said public company, there's some "pressure" there as you have to protect the company image.
Yeah, but like I keep saying, I accused the company accusing him of fraud. No one cares.
I've not seen a single publication of merit talking about it. The company looks great, I think, that only clearly fraudulent outlets have been talking about it. What legit publication has made mention of it?
CNBC isn't legit? Seeking Alpha isn't legit? MarketWatch isn't legit?
It's been discussed in the media by multiple outlets which is why I originally shared it here was to get some input and thoughts from those like myself who are consumers. It was a place to discuss it as the news unfolded.
