VLAN confusion
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
....he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept.
So if you are convinced this might not be a bad actor scenario. Paint me this picture of where someone that is an adult, and paid to protect a company from things like salesman, whose sole job is to be the overseer of this department, has not only invited a salesman to run the company, allowed that salesman to violate best practices, and has shut down his technical staff paid to advise him when bad technical or business practices are happening?
Tell me where the wiggle room is for an ethical engagement here.
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Nope, you just made an impossibly illogical excuse to try to make it look like what I said isn't the obvious answer. That's how extremely irrational it is to try to defend.
The issue is NOT his ability to research or to know anything technical. The issue is a fundamental ethics breach of his job duties. Any mentioning of a lack of ability or skill in a technical or research area I see as meaning someone has agreed with the lack of ethics and is failing to attempt to rationalize how something so obviously unethical must have a viable excuse.
Stop and examine the situation. Obviously, something unethical has happened. It's so obvious, so clear, that the real issue is... how is everyone closer to the situation not pointing it out and talking about it?
I assume you're referring to the fact that he's talking to a sales person, and not a buyer's agent?
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
He and my company owners are good friends so I'm not going to get anywhere by running to the CEO (Our company hierarchy is pretty flat by the way).
Read: We know he's on the take and has the leverage to keep it that way.
If you know he's a crook and the CEO doesn't care and would punish you for exposing him, then say so up front. Don't pretend he's got skills or cares or is ethical. You should never try to cover up a known ethics violation because it makes you look confused and you're logic will be trivial to expose. That you know he's a crook, you know that the company will punish you and doesn't care that he's stealing from them, then all you need to do is lead with that.
But then it begs the question, what's the purpose of the question if your technical point is to try to protect the company, but you know that doing so will get you fired for exposing the CIO's shuffling of funds around?
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
Scott considers the act of not protecting a company from sale personal to be on the take/corrupt.
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@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
But his explanation clearly shows that any defense of the CIO is a panic emotional response with no logical connection. His reasoning is disconnected from the situation and highlights my point.
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
Scott considers the act of not protecting a company from sale personal to be on the take/corrupt.
Because it is. It's his job, paying someone else to do his job for him without disclosing it is theft.
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
He and my company owners are good friends so I'm not going to get anywhere by running to the CEO (Our company hierarchy is pretty flat by the way).
Read: We know he's on the take and has the leverage to keep it that way.
If you know he's a crook and the CEO doesn't care and would punish you for exposing him, then say so up front. Don't pretend he's got skills or cares or is ethical. You should never try to cover up a known ethics violation because it makes you look confused and you're logic will be trivial to expose. That you know he's a crook, you know that the company will punish you and doesn't care that he's stealing from them, then all you need to do is lead with that.
But then it begs the question, what's the purpose of the question if your technical point is to try to protect the company, but you know that doing so will get you fired for exposing the CIO's shuffling of funds around?
There's no take - he's not personally gaining anything (at least it's not likely) from his dealing with a sales person instead of a buyer's agent. Sure the company is getting screwed.. but the CIO isn't getting a million in his pocket, or even a can of soda..
Is he failing at his job - yes, but so are million and millions of people in this same situation. -
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
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@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
Is he failing at his job - yes, but so are million and millions of people in this same situation.
Everyone is doing it so it must be ok?
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
Scott considers the act of not protecting a company from sale personal to be on the take/corrupt.
I think to not feel this way requires an extreme degree of "flexible ethics." If I pay someone to make good decisions and protect my business, and then that person takes that money and turns around and does exactly the thing that they've been paid not to do and even uses their influence to enable it, that's completely corrupt and unethical. Completely. The entire basis for the job is a lie, and the actions taken aren't just to fail to do the job that he is paid to do, but to act completely contrary to the job and actively act as the enemy of the business. He's paid to work for the business, but acts literally against it.
Please explain where the grey area is here that allows this to be a "Scott sees it" way. How does Dashrender see it another way?
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
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@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
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@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
Haven't seen Cisco pricing lately?
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
But his explanation clearly shows that any defense of the CIO is a panic emotional response with no logical connection. His reasoning is disconnected from the situation and highlights my point.
Most people aren't like Scott - Scott can be shown that something he was doing is horribly corrupt and once he agrees with you, he will not be upset in any way... Most SMB business owners aren't like that in my experience. Sure Enterprise leaders probably are like that, they know things change, and mistakes happen and it's life.. as long as things are moving in the correct direction, the chance of there being blow back are low.. but in SMB, it's all personal - even though it's just business - and they take it personally and don't want to look like fools, etc.
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@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@jaredbusch said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
in the meantime, are there any good voice solution alternatives that you guys could provide? Part of our requirement for our phones is that we may not want to have it cloud-hosted due to the fact that our internet connection goes down every so often during business hours. YES I get that this is another problem that should be resolved vs applying a bandaid, but we live out in the country and have limited ISP options (Spec---m and Centu---ink).
FreePBX will probably meet your needs as it generally meets the needs of most people. It's opensource and free, can be hosted in house, and integrates with any SIP based IP Phone. There are people, here in the community that support it.
And will likely cost 1/10 what Cisco will cost. Seriously, you should give @JaredBusch a call and ask him to quote you a full on replacement and compare it's cost to Cisco.
1/10? I'd be surprised if it cost 1/100th.
Well, I'm not that cheap of a date.
Haven't seen Cisco pricing lately?
Point to you.
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
There's no take - he's not personally gaining anything (at least it's not likely) from his dealing with a sales person instead of a buyer's agent. Sure the company is getting screwed.. but the CIO isn't getting a million in his pocket, or even a can of soda..
Is he failing at his job - yes, but so are million and millions of people in this same situation.So you think he's a volunteer and not getting paid? Unless he's not been paid, there is money involved.
And you claim that he's not getting any benefits from the vendor. That's an absurd claim. Of course he is. Will the Cisco sales people do any design work here? Any setup? Any support? That alone is part of the corruption.
Is he getting cash back? Unlikely, but only barely unlikely. Even that is extremely common and given what we KNOW about his ethics here, there is zero reason for you to interject the assumption that he's not getting any benefits more directly.
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@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
Most people aren't like Scott - Scott can be shown that something he was doing is horribly corrupt and once he agrees with you, he will not be upset in any way... Most SMB business owners aren't like that in my experience.
Mostly because... they are unethical. Once you accept that people are often unethical, it's starts being a logical set of results.
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@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@dashrender said in VLAN confusion:
@scottalanmiller said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 said in VLAN confusion:
@coliver said in VLAN confusion:
@dave247 Sounds like your company has made a decision already.
The CIO has failed at one of the most basic life skills...
"Never take advice from a sales person."
Yes, I am aware of this sigh but I can only do so much. I don't want to get into the details of my work dynamic with my boss and all that, and long story-short, I have to do what he says as I am the only sysadmin/low man on the totem pole.
In a healthy company, that statement should get you in trouble - because knowing that you have a security / ethics breach and a rogue actor putting the company at risk should be something that the company doesn't just allow you to expose, but requires you to expose. Does the CEO really not want to know that he has a CIO abusing the company for personal reasons?
It's comments like this that make this hard to accept. It's not that it's not possible - but how do you know his CIO is abusing the company for personal reasons? It's every bit more likely that he's simply failing at his job of researching good solution - and that no reasons other than laziness are really involved here.
Yes, this. I 100% believe this is far more accurate description of what's going on vs corrupt employees "on the take".
Scott considers the act of not protecting a company from sale personal to be on the take/corrupt.
I think to not feel this way requires an extreme degree of "flexible ethics." If I pay someone to make good decisions and protect my business, and then that person takes that money and turns around and does exactly the thing that they've been paid not to do and even uses their influence to enable it, that's completely corrupt and unethical. Completely. The entire basis for the job is a lie, and the actions taken aren't just to fail to do the job that he is paid to do, but to act completely contrary to the job and actively act as the enemy of the business. He's paid to work for the business, but acts literally against it.
Please explain where the grey area is here that allows this to be a "Scott sees it" way. How does Dashrender see it another way?
I think, to put it simply, if someone is doing their job in an honest and sincere way to the best of their ability, yet still sucks at some or all aspects of their job, then that means that person is just guilty of being bad at their job, not that they are corrupt or on the take.
