How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education
-
@JaredBusch said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Example:
Every company I have ever worked for already had a functional (more or less) domain with multiple domain controllers. I have never needed to setup my own domain, forest, subdomains, etc. I just recently had to delve into it and learned a lot, but I by no means know everything. Frankly, until I experience something from a lot of different angles I don't think I really know it. Most of my personal knowledge is conceptual but there is so much misinformation out there that before I joined ML I didn't know if what I was reading was correct. It sounded right, but I had no way of really knowing. Misinformation is what makes learning hard IMO. It forces me to need to forget information as well as retain information instead of fully concentrating on retaining it.
how does hearing it on ML help you know it's right?
because everyone corrects everyone here in an effort to make the information accurate. we heavily scrutinize each other in an effort to improve one another. Look at RAID on ML vs Spiceworks. That's a great example.
I haven't been on SW as much lately - Is Scott not correcting whatever wrong over there he finds? Or are you saying his voice is lost in a sea of other garbage and is basically getting lost in the noise?
I would say his voice is lost in the sea of other garbage and people muting him, lol.
I was on SW for a couple of years before I met Scott, and actually directly messaged him a question, I think.
I'm muted several times a day, it's crazy. Post "I don't recommend FreeNAS" and it's instant muting from a lot of people. For every post someone makes that makes sense, there are a dozen vendor pointless posts pushing their product and about five people posting all confused about something basic in the same way.
do you get notices when you are muted?
Yes, but not who is muting. Also, not always even what thread.
The last time that I was muted, but only the last time, it told me what thread. That's how I knew it was the FreeNAS one.
-
Being the new IT guy, I'll try and paint a picture for you about how these knowledge gaps happen, or at least my story.
I attended college at School of Informatics and Computing, with a degree path in "New Media" as they call it. My education consisted of 3-D Animation/Modeling using several programs but with a strong emphasis on Maya. I also took some classes in Web Development (CSS, XHTML). My education stopped there as far as computers go. But I'm comfortable around computers, and I have been ever since I got my first one.
I took a job at a quasi-military academy, working with "at-risk" youth. My first job was simply as Cadre (something like a Drill Sergeant). After about a year, they had an opening for "entry-level" assistant for the MIS department (we're the IT for the organization). I was only TDA'd (Temporary Duty Assignment) initially, but I liked it so much, I decide to interview to keep it and get paid for it. My two years of computer related studies qualified me for the position and I got it.
I honestly came into the job knowing that I knew nothing about most of it, but was confident that I could learn everything I needed. We have a pretty broad range of responsibilities here in my department compared to what I been reading about other IT departments. Some things I do well already, and others I'm working out, but carefully as I do not want to stretch myself too thin.
When I first started, did I know what a Domain Controller was? Not a clue. Active Directory? What's that!? Hell, I even had to learn how to Windows+PauseBreak when my boss told me to add a computer to the network. On the flip side of that, my boss can't code a webpage to save his life. That's where I come in. The rest is time/experience. I feel that knowledge gaps like this aren't as relevant as having the resources to bridge those gaps. I mean, we're supposed to be the best at Googling right? It's in our nature to find solutions. That's the only relevant skill I'm seeing.
-
@G-I-Jones said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
I feel that knowledge gaps like this aren't as relevant as having the resources to bridge those gaps. I mean, we're supposed to be the best at Googling right? It's in our nature to find solutions. That's the only relevant skill I'm seeing.
I think that that is specifically where those gaps might come from. IT can't be done by Googling. Sure, trivial things like "what is a domain controller" can be, but what triggers you to know that you need to Google that? IT requires, IMHO, a load of "baseline" knowledge, far more than most fields, so that things like Googling answers can be applied on top of that.
Like I Google the syntax for a command, but not the concept behind the command or which command to run. If I had to pick Google or "good books", good books I'd say are twice as important or more for IT. Google helps me know which button to push, but books and more traditional, structured learning, taught me what buttons to acquire.
-
Can you define for me, what you consider "baseline" knowledge? It sounds to me like you're referring to common sense.
I'm having a bit of trouble seeing your point in the examples you've given. I'm super open to understanding this though, could you elaborate a little more please?I feel like I've read "baseline" knowledge somewhere else on this forum or another, is that a post already?
Forgive me if it is. -
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
If I had to pick Google or "good books", good books I'd say are twice as important or more for IT. Google helps me know which button to push, but books and more traditional, structured learning, taught me what buttons to acquire.
While I agree that good books can be hugely helpful! But don't you think peers and mentors should appear in that list? Or do you consider them to fall under traditional learning?
For me... The books I read showed me a button or two and pointed me at other buttons that may be helpful. My peers and Google taught me how to acquire buttons for anything I want to find... and traditional learning taught me the concepts about the buttons that I may not have already understood.
-
@G-I-Jones said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Can you define for me, what you consider "baseline" knowledge? It sounds to me like you're referring to common sense.
I'm having a bit of trouble seeing your point in the examples you've given. I'm super open to understanding this though, could you elaborate a little more please?I feel like I've read "baseline" knowledge somewhere else on this forum or another, is that a post already?
Forgive me if it is.Well hopefully anyone has common sense. LOL. But no, common sense and baseline knowledge are unrelated. I mean having both gives you way more power than either alone, of course. One augments the other.
Let's give an example... RAID levels should be baseline knowledge. Or how TCP/IP addressing works. Or what the two main families of operating systems are and what the big three desktops are, or the big three or four server OSes. Just as examples.
There is a thread, I'll dig it up.
-
@dafyre said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
While I agree that good books can be hugely helpful! But don't you think peers and mentors should appear in that list? Or do you consider them to fall under traditional learning?
Oh sure, they are another traditional form. However, they are a dangerous one. Due ot the IT Bubble effect, loads of mentors can be really, really dangerous and if you don't have good baseline knowledge you can easily get a mentor that isn't in a position to be a mentor at all, or even a peer. THat's how the 1998 Problem came about (I think), loads of unqualified mentors teaching by rote a new generation of non-baselined interns with totally incorrect, outdated or poorly relayed "knowledge."
-
Here is a thread where I am attempting to assemble a baseline:
-
And here is a thread where I am trying to get people to assemble a baseline definition from which to make the former.
https://mangolassi.it/topic/12316/of-what-should-baseline-it-education-consist
-
I started learning when I was middle school aged back in the early 80s. I learned DOS because I was fascinated with computers, that is all my computer had on it. I had to make boot discs and learn how to manage the memory if I wanted to play games, ahh Star Control I and II, those where the days! Back in the 80s and 90s to do cool stuff you had to learn how the computer worked, I remember running my BBS system. All before you had Google or the internet. Now I think all we have are people that know how to push GUI buttons. They don't understand what that button really is doing. I don't really program that much but I find bugs all the time and often it is because someone didn't understand how the computer really works. I took a break from computers when I was in law enforcement for several years and I was scared when I went to change careers and actually get into IT because it had been so long for me just even away from it as a hobby. After getting in the field I wasn't worried at all. It seems like they don't teach the basics.
-
@PenguinWrangler I did this as well in early 90s. Once i skipped school and dialed into a bbs so i could get shareware versions of a bunch of games. Phone bill was like 350 that month. That was a paddlin.
-
@PenguinWrangler said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
It seems like they don't teach the basics.
They don't. No schools are, that's for sure. And almost no mentors are. I can't believe how much of what I explain on SW day in and day out is just "baseline" stuff that was expected from any entry level IT guy in the mid-1990s. Sure I've updated some licensing prices and a few vendors have changed, but all the basics are still the basics. The "hot new tech" that so many people are excited to learn... we were doing in the 1990s at home. I'm not sure how so much baseline is missed today, but it is often huge. And a little baseline goes a long way.
-
It's like RAID, just as an example. One hour of learning "what RAID is, what parity is and what mirroring is" combined with a trivial amount of "these are the naming conventions" is all you need to basically know everything that there is to know about safety, speed, capacity, cost, etc. Yet it takes thousands of threads covering that topic and people get it ass backwards every day. You can Google it till the cows come home but without the baseline, it is really hard to know which information is right, relevant, up to date, or applicable for the given situation (e.g. RAID 5 is the devil!!! But only from 2009 on, and only with Winchester disks and SSDs are fine and... and.... )
-
@scottalanmiller said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
It's like RAID, just as an example. One hour of learning "what RAID is, what parity is and what mirroring is" combined with a trivial amount of "these are the naming conventions" is all you need to basically know everything that there is to know about safety, speed, capacity, cost, etc. Yet it takes thousands of threads covering that topic and people get it ass backwards every day. You can Google it till the cows come home but without the baseline, it is really hard to know which information is right, relevant, up to date, or applicable for the given situation (e.g. RAID 5 is the devil!!! But only from 2009 on, and only with Winchester disks and SSDs are fine and... and.... )
If I see another question about RAID.......... you hold them down and I will pepper spray them.......
-
@scottalanmiller Misinformation definitely plays a role
-
@G-I-Jones said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
Can you define for me, what you consider "baseline" knowledge? It sounds to me like you're referring to common sense.
I'm having a bit of trouble seeing your point in the examples you've given. I'm super open to understanding this though, could you elaborate a little more please?I feel like I've read "baseline" knowledge somewhere else on this forum or another, is that a post already?
Forgive me if it is.I'm with Scott - the baseline information can't really come from just plain Googling, because you don't know the right questions to ask. The reading of structured books in the mid 90's gave me my baseline for networking, IT, RAID, Windows, etc. Sadly it didn't go into the reasons why RAID 5 had failure zones, at the time it was basically accepted that you did RAID 5 unless speed was an absolute requirement, then you did RAID 1 or 10 (well you could do RAID 0 if you didn't care about the actual data, but that was rare).
-
@wirestyle22 said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
@scottalanmiller Misinformation definitely plays a role
A huge one. That's why a solid baseline is important AND a solid knowledge of how to access good peer review or other sources.
-
@Dashrender said in How Do Such Big Gaps Get Missed in IT Education:
I'm with Scott - the baseline information can't really come from just plain Googling, because you don't know the right questions to ask.
That's so big. What questions do I need to ask? If I just Google, I know what command to put into Windows. With a solid baseline, I know that I should have been on my Cisco router.
-
I think today it is easier to get farther on less knowledge because of the technology. Back in the 80s and 90s you really had to understand how everything worked together. I think it is easier today than back then. I believe the internet and Google have exacerbated this. Before you had the internet, in today's form, you really had to search out people. You learned from live people. My first BBS that I set up when I was 13, was done with the help of an older kid. He was 17. He came to my house and taught me how to do it though. I really looked up to him. He was awesome. I also believe that the IT community was much more willing to teach back before today. My Uncle introduced me to some IT guys at his work. They mentored me in the late 80s and early 90s. I volunteered at my Uncle's work, it was a non-profit. I will say that, at least in the USA, we taught better before the internet, not to say there hasn't been good things with education and the internet. What I see is missing is critical thinking and logic skills. Once you know the baseline, anything on the internet you should be able to use critical thinking and logic to do a "sniff test" and see if they are selling BS.
I believe this is from the fact that in the USA at least, that is all I can really comment on, that we might value the information but we never value the teacher. Especially in IT. I think this is why the baseline is so hard to find. We have devoured our teachers. I liked the post you had on that Scott.
-
I'll take this from a different tack.
I think back in the 80's and 90's (actually from the beginning until the internet) that the interest was low, but those with interest made a real effort to find like minded people and get the help/training the wanted/needed. But with the internet age, you have casual users turned IT pro mostly because their boss has no respect for the profession and says - hey, I've seen you google before, so that means you know how to setup a nuclear reactor, right? Great - you're now in charge of our IT. This is evident every day in SW.
I don't think have have fewer resources, I think we have the same number we had back then. We just have a lot more people today groping at those resources. But even saying that, many of these people aren't even really trying. They aren't learning the foundational things that really only can come from a book (ok in rare cases you can find a teacher/mentor).
But that said, not all resources are created equal. For example, I learned my MCSE from books and a few lab PCs. The MS training courses covered RAID 0, 1, 5 (I can't recall if 10 was mentioned, and RAID 6 definitely was NOT mentioned). But the underlying math that today shows us why RAID 5 on HDDs is no longer viable was never mentioned. So I see Scott preaching at people about - OMG how can you consider RAID 5 acceptable? how can you not know the math that shows that UREs make RAID 5 on HDDs mathematically crazy? To which I answer - that wasn't part of the course-ware I studied.
The question I ask is - Where, Scott, did you run into this, and why was it important enough for you to know it?
Now of course, those of us who have seen the math now understand why RAID 5 on HDDs is untenable, but this really only became a thing in the mid 2000's. Before that, normal admins did they even know about UREs? and if so, why or how did they become aware of them?
