Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@thwr said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You are mixing things. What THIS discussion about is a Linux newbie who just needs some very basic OS included packages selected (plus maybe Chrome, we aren't sure) that should be from an added repo. There is no reason to be considering building anything or getting individual packages or using commands like DPKG. You are then referencing advanced server configuration stuff for experts that has the sole purpose of building something that is not in the repos for a totally different purpose. The two are not related.
What this and his other threads are about is just getting a laptop up and running so that he can program Java. He was not aware of repos, how Linux works, when packages are appropriate, that software even existed for Linux, etc. We are trying to get him up and running the right way, not trying to confuse him with loads of "well you COULD do it this way." He doesn't need Wine, we are pretty sure he doesn't need Chrome, he doesn't need to download lots of packages, they are all in the OS already.
Doesn't happen often, but I'm with @scottalanmiller here. The other thread was about brand new software that doesn't yet exist in the official (or other) repos. There was another thread like this, about installing Snipe-IT.
Here, we're talking about a newbie trying to get things running... in a 12-gauge shotgun way of approaching things.
PS @Lakshmana: Don't get me wrong, we all want to help you, but you are sometimes trying to get straight through the wall instead of using the door
I didn't see the SnipeIT one. I mean I whole heartedly agree that you should use the repos. But there are times when you can't. Or it's just as easy to install the package and it does the repo adding, like with Chrome, RPMFusion, EPEL, etc.
Sure, there are times. And we discussed that with @Lakshmana and told him not to use plain packages (or even a git clone) as keeping that up to date is next to impossible for someone who is new to the whole Linux/BSD ecosystem. Even more so when we are talking about a browser, which is a huge attack vector and should be kept updated all the time.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@thwr said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You are mixing things. What THIS discussion about is a Linux newbie who just needs some very basic OS included packages selected (plus maybe Chrome, we aren't sure) that should be from an added repo. There is no reason to be considering building anything or getting individual packages or using commands like DPKG. You are then referencing advanced server configuration stuff for experts that has the sole purpose of building something that is not in the repos for a totally different purpose. The two are not related.
What this and his other threads are about is just getting a laptop up and running so that he can program Java. He was not aware of repos, how Linux works, when packages are appropriate, that software even existed for Linux, etc. We are trying to get him up and running the right way, not trying to confuse him with loads of "well you COULD do it this way." He doesn't need Wine, we are pretty sure he doesn't need Chrome, he doesn't need to download lots of packages, they are all in the OS already.
Doesn't happen often, but I'm with @scottalanmiller here. The other thread was about brand new software that doesn't yet exist in the official (or other) repos. There was another thread like this, about installing Snipe-IT.
Here, we're talking about a newbie trying to get things running... in a 12-gauge shotgun way of approaching things.
PS @Lakshmana: Don't get me wrong, we all want to help you, but you are sometimes trying to get straight through the wall instead of using the door
I didn't see the SnipeIT one. I mean I whole heartedly agree that you should use the repos. But there are times when you can't. Or it's just as easy to install the package and it does the repo adding, like with Chrome, RPMFusion, EPEL, etc.
Right. And what we've been saying to @Lakshmana is that everything he has been doing and is looking to do should be handled only via the repos. He's not looking to do anything that makes any sense to approach in any other way.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're cloning from GitHub for current.
Current is current, not testing. Lots of software using GIT for deployments these days. NodeBB, for example. There is no repos except for GIT for NodeBB. And GIT is a repo system. Not as nice as YUM or APT, but it is a repo system. It's an advanced one, for sure, and not for people to learn on. But it's more and more common for software to officially be deployed via GIT and it doesn't imply that the versions are not production ready.
The Ansible version in the example was the recommended deployment process right from Ansible's documentation.
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're cloning from GitHub for current. That's like using the dev release of Chrome. The release of Chrome in the repo is the official stable release. The release of Ansible in the repos for RHEL are the official stable release. It's not the same thing at all.
That's incorrect. Ansible 2 was the official release at that time. Cloning from GIT is how Ansible releases their production release. You are totally misunderstanding how this works in this case. What RH puts in the repos is in no way reflective of what is the production release from Ansible (or any other product) and this should be very widely understood. The RH repos are almost never current on anything, this is in fact famously the biggest complaint of RH, just how far behind current release their repos are (but it is part of their policy.)
It's not official for your OS though. Gnome 3 is currently at like 3.22, that's the official. See if you can get support using 3.22 on RHEL. Official for RHEL is 3.14. If we are going to count what's available in the repos as official, then what's in the RHEL repo is official. Chrome isn't in the repo, so what's in their repo is the official.
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
The Ansible version in the example was the recommended deployment process right from Ansible's documentation.
So is installing from Yum from EPEL.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
It's not official for your OS though.
Right and the point was to be running the official of Ansible, not the official of CentOS. It can't be both, has to be one or the other (in most cases.) Same with LibreOffice. The latest LibreOffice is basically always newer than the one in your OS repo.
Think about MongoDB as a great example. No OS keeps it current. So the official, latest, stable, supported, recommended MangoDB always comes from MongoDB. But they maintain their own repos for many different OSes, even though those OSes all (or almost all) maintain older MongoDB versions in their own repos. Which is official?
If you are looking for the latest from Ubuntu, then MongoDB is old. If you want the latest official from MongoDB, then it gets new. Both are valid and have different use cases.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
The Ansible version in the example was the recommended deployment process right from Ansible's documentation.
So is installing from Yum from EPEL.
Not if you want the currently recommended version of Ansible (at least at that time.)
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're cloning from GitHub for current. That's like using the dev release of Chrome. The release of Chrome in the repo is the official stable release. The release of Ansible in the repos for RHEL are the official stable release. It's not the same thing at all.
That's incorrect. Ansible 2 was the official release at that time. Cloning from GIT is how Ansible releases their production release. You are totally misunderstanding how this works in this case. What RH puts in the repos is in no way reflective of what is the production release from Ansible (or any other product) and this should be very widely understood. The RH repos are almost never current on anything, this is in fact famously the biggest complaint of RH, just how far behind current release their repos are (but it is part of their policy.)
It's not official for your OS though. Gnome 3 is currently at like 3.22, that's the official. See if you can get support using 3.22 on RHEL. Official for RHEL is 3.14. If we are going to count what's available in the repos as official, then what's in the RHEL repo is official. Chrome isn't in the repo, so what's in their repo is the official.
Right, but I don't consider what is in the OS repo as official to the applications, it's what is officially part of the OS.
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're cloning from GitHub for current. That's like using the dev release of Chrome. The release of Chrome in the repo is the official stable release. The release of Ansible in the repos for RHEL are the official stable release. It's not the same thing at all.
That's incorrect. Ansible 2 was the official release at that time. Cloning from GIT is how Ansible releases their production release. You are totally misunderstanding how this works in this case. What RH puts in the repos is in no way reflective of what is the production release from Ansible (or any other product) and this should be very widely understood. The RH repos are almost never current on anything, this is in fact famously the biggest complaint of RH, just how far behind current release their repos are (but it is part of their policy.)
It's not official for your OS though. Gnome 3 is currently at like 3.22, that's the official. See if you can get support using 3.22 on RHEL. Official for RHEL is 3.14. If we are going to count what's available in the repos as official, then what's in the RHEL repo is official. Chrome isn't in the repo, so what's in their repo is the official.
Right, but I don't consider what is in the OS repo as official to the applications, it's what is officially part of the OS.
And you have no way to verify that what you are using works with the current packages you have. So you are running into the exact problem you are telling him not to do. How do you guarantee that the MongoDB version that's current from their repos works with the packages on your system? That's the whole point of using a distro's repos. You're going against what you're preaching.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
So you are running into the exact problem you are telling him not to do.
Exactly, because I'm a Linux expert by trade, know exactly what those risks are, am prepared to manage that and am working with the packages that Ansible says will work (so I'm not running into that problem, actually.)
And I am telling him not to because his goal is a working laptop for learning Java programming, not to learn Linux.
So yes, he should be doing something different than me here, most certainly.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
How do you guarantee that the MongoDB version that's current from their repos works with the packages on your system?
That's super simple. MongoDB's repos are tied to the RHEL versions. Just because you use a third party repo does not break the repo system. The repos maintain versions of support packages just like they always do. This is the beauty of YUM. Going with MongoDB's own repos does not change how that works at all, it just gives me access to more up to date packages with support from MongoDB themselves for the database instead of from Red Hat.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're going against what you're preaching.
That depends on interpretation. I'm preaching one thing to him based on his needs. I don't have his needs. So I'm going against what I preached to him, but not against anything that would have applied to the situation where I went against them.
Also, that I showed how to install Ansible 2 didn't imply that it was recommended. I'm not saying that it is not, only that it wasn't. If we had a "how to" set your car on fire doesn't contradict a statement that says "we don't recommend burning your car."
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In the case of MongoDB, RHEL/CentOS 7 are the official platforms for the current MongoDB and the YUM repos from MongoDB are the official way to deploy to them. The most official way to run MongoDB is as we are running it (right here for ML.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
The repos maintain versions of support packages just like they always do
Ya if the packages were there to begin with.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
The repos maintain versions of support packages just like they always do
Ya if the packages were there to begin with.
Nope, it literally works the same. You do "yum install mongodb" and it grabs anything that it needs from the RHEL/CentOS repos. That's the reason that we are so adamant about using repos like this, the support just keeps working. Literally the only package that you need from the MongoDB project is MongoDB. Once you add that repo, installs work exactly like if you were installing the old MongoDB that is included in RHEL. Dependencies are all handles for you just the same.
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
You're going against what you're preaching.
That depends on interpretation. I'm preaching one thing to him based on his needs. I don't have his needs. So I'm going against what I preached to him, but not against anything that would have applied to the situation where I went against them.
Also, that I showed how to install Ansible 2 didn't imply that it was recommended. I'm not saying that it is not, only that it wasn't. If we had a "how to" set your car on fire doesn't contradict a statement that says "we don't recommend burning your car."
His needs were Chrome. You told him to stick with the OS repos. The whole point I'm making is that for a beginner, if you can install one package and it adds the correct repos, do it that way. Having them import gpg keys and manually adding repos is much harder than installing the package they give you that does all of that for you.
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Here is my how to on installing the latest MongoDB on CentOS 7. The only thing that MongoDB doesn't grab on its own is a handy tool for SELinux, and that's because it's optional, not required.
https://mangolassi.it/topic/8075/installing-mongodb-3-2-on-centos-7
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@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
@scottalanmiller said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
The repos maintain versions of support packages just like they always do
Ya if the packages were there to begin with.
Nope, it literally works the same. You do "yum install mongodb" and it grabs anything that it needs from the RHEL/CentOS repos. That's the reason that we are so adamant about using repos like this, the support just keeps working. Literally the only package that you need from the MongoDB project is MongoDB. Once you add that repo, installs work exactly like if you were installing the old MongoDB that is included in RHEL. Dependencies are all handles for you just the same.
Not just MongoDB obviously.
You do "yum install mongodb" and it grabs anything that it needs from the RHEL/CentOS repos.
Again, only if the dependencies exist for your OS. There are times where the 3rd party repo is further ahead and requires packages that don't exist in the standard repos.
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
His needs were Chrome. You told him to stick with the OS repos. The whole point I'm making is that for a beginner, if you can install one package and it adds the correct repos, do it that way. Having them import gpg keys and manually adding repos is much harder than installing the package they give you that does all of that for you.
I see what you are saying. But didn't that one package fail? I was not aware, however, that it would add repos on its own. But what we have been trying to get him to do is to simply stick with what the OS has unless otherwise needed. Originally he had a laundry list of extra things. But the end, he was down to zero (or possibly Chrome, we still aren't totally sure.)
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@stacksofplates said in Xubuntu 16.10 Issue Detected:
Again, only if the dependencies exist for your OS.
But this is a repo for that specific OS. So of course they all exist. You could say the same thing about the EPEL or even CentOS' own packages. But they are all three designed to rely on the packages that are there. Sure, any repo could be broken, that's a different issue.
