ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
No, I am stating that you are intentionally using inflammatory verbiage in your description of the problem.
Do you feel that it has another purpose other than enforcing PHP 5 instead of PHP 7? I'm unclear why you feel that it is inflammatory and/or incorrect. From what I can tell, they wanted to have a package that made sure that, for some reason, we are using PHP 5. The only other option that they had was PHP 7. So, from what I can tell in behaviour, name and description, this package adds nothing itself, it exists only to remove PHP 7 as an option.
I'm not in the slightest trying to be inflammatory, as far as I know that is the only way to describe what I think the intent is.
yes, you are choosing to be intentionally confrontational
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
that appears to exist only to remove compatibility with PHP 7
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
In this example, we are looking at the ownCloud repo failing because they added a bad package to it whose sole purpose appears to be to break PHP7 compatibility.
That's not confrontational, it's just what the purpose appears to be. If it feels confrontational that's some emotional baggage that you are bringing to the situation. Read the words, nothing slightly confrontation or inflammatory there. They needed (or wanted I suppose) to remove PHP 7 usage, so they did. If you think what I said is confrontational, you must think removing the compatibility is a conspiracy or something. I'm just stating what appears to be fact, not injecting any emotion. Why you see it emotionally I do not know.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If you have a problem, report an issue instead of broadcasting assumptions. Discuss the problem here yes. But broadcasting assumptions is wrong.
Yes, they broke it.
It is highly unlikely that it was intentional.
You are broadcasting assumption there, and I think a very unlikely one. The package is named and description made to be PHP 5. I'm assuming that the person doing it and the people reviewing it actually thought about it for a second. There was already dependency handling, this is additional and states pretty clearly that it is to depend on PHP 5 (rather than PHP 5 OR HIGHER as before.)
My wild assumptions would be as to why, which I have not said. But I would assume that this is because of a compatibility issue either with what they have now or plan to release.
The only assumptions that I made is that their names were accurate, the team was competent and that their actions were intentional. Hardly confrontational assumptions.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If you want my opinion, they added that new package to collect the PHP5 legacy dependencies in one place and just screwed up the coding for how to determine what to use.
I simply gave them the benefit of the doubt.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If you have a problem, report an issue instead of broadcasting assumptions. Discuss the problem here yes. But broadcasting assumptions is wrong.
Yes, they broke it.
It is highly unlikely that it was intentional.
You are broadcasting assumption there, and I think a very unlikely one. The package is named and description made to be PHP 5. I'm assuming that the person doing it and the people reviewing it actually thought about it for a second. There was already dependency handling, this is additional and states pretty clearly that it is to depend on PHP 5 (rather than PHP 5 OR HIGHER as before.)
My wild assumptions would be as to why, which I have not said. But I would assume that this is because of a compatibility issue either with what they have now or plan to release.
The only assumptions that I made is that their names were accurate, the team was competent and that their actions were intentional. Hardly confrontational assumptions.
Of course I am. I did it intentionally because you are intentionally broadcasting your own.
You are stating an opinion. That opinion is that they are intentionally removing PHP7 support.
This is your opinion, based solely on a single package name. No different than my opinion.
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I think that it is a bit more inflammatory to feel that they made a mistake than to think that they were protecting us from some issue with PHP 7 and/or their code using PHP 7.
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Does any of this really matter? Neither of you are going to change the other person's mind and if that isn't your goal then why argue in the first place?
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is your opinion, based solely on a single package name. No different than my opinion.
My opinion is that what they did was intentional. Yours is that they made a mistake. My "opinion" was simply to trust them, yours is to distrust. Mine implies no malice or mistake. Yours implies mistake.
My "opinion" is just repeating what they have implied. At some point, everything is opinion. But mine is just going by what they said.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter? Neither of you are going to change the other person's mind and if that isn't your goal then why argue in the first place?
Mine's just repeating what I believe they told me. Not trying to inject opinion.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If you have a problem, report an issue instead of broadcasting assumptions. Discuss the problem here yes. But broadcasting assumptions is wrong.
I tagged them. I made sure that they were aware of the discussion.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter? Neither of you are going to change the other person's mind and if that isn't your goal then why argue in the first place?
Mine's just repeating what I believe they told me. Not trying to inject opinion.
What they told you? You are reading a whole hell of a lot into a package name.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter?
Yes, to some degree. I believe that they felt that PHP 7 should not be used as the logical conclusion of why it was removed. That's fine, we just need to move to PHP 5.6. Jared's opinion is that they made a mistake, didn't catch it in testing and are having quality control issues as the logical conclusion.
So if my reading of it is correct, you should not be using PHP 7 with ownCloud. If Jared's is correct, ownCloud has egg on their face and you need them to fix something that they broke.
In one case, it is broken. In the other, it is not.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
What they told you? You are reading a whole hell of a lot into a package name.
And the description of the package.
Far less than you are reading into nothing. I'm basing what I think is true off of what I think that they were telling me. You are saying it is wrong only because you think so.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter? Neither of you are going to change the other person's mind and if that isn't your goal then why argue in the first place?
Mine's just repeating what I believe they told me. Not trying to inject opinion.
What they told you? You are reading a whole hell of a lot into a package name.
That is true but why argue about it? You guys do this sometimes and I don't understand it. If you have to choose between being right and being kind--kindness should always be your choice IMO. You just have to tolerate each other not accept one another.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
That is true but why argue about it? You guys do this sometimes and I don't understand it. If you have to choose between being right and being kind--kindness should always be your choice IMO. You just have to tolerate each other not accept one another.
I think and Jared would probably agree, that the two are one and the same. Being wrong to make someone else "feel better" is patronizing.
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For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
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Consider a training for a boxer. A "kind" trainer would tell the boxer to go home early, take it easy, eat some cake and watch Netflix. An "honest" trainer would make the boxer work hard so that he has a chance of winning.
Who's really kind? The one that lets the boxer fail or the one that pushes him to grow?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
If the criticism is honest and correctable (calling people ugly isn't correctable, for example) then it is always constructive.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
For example...
If I'm wrong and Jared is correct (remember, we could both be wrong somehow) then this is a chance for me to learn. Am I jumping to conclusions? Am I misunderstanding the package as it is?
It's a chance to grow. If I just "be kind" and condescend to act like it doesn't matter, we lose a learning and growth opportunity.
Yes but there is constructive criticism (like what I am doing now) and unconstructive. I am both challenging you guys and also being kind.
No, you are being anti confrontational. Why? Just because you don't like to be confrontated? How is our conversation unconstructive?
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
Does any of this really matter?
Yes, to some degree. I believe that they felt that PHP 7 should not be used as the logical conclusion of why it was removed. That's fine, we just need to move to PHP 5.6. Jared's opinion is that they made a mistake, didn't catch it in testing and are having quality control issues as the logical conclusion.
So if my reading of it is correct, you should not be using PHP 7 with ownCloud. If Jared's is correct, ownCloud has egg on their face and you need them to fix something that they broke.
In one case, it is broken. In the other, it is not.
It is certainly broken. OwnCloud has a history of not getting things right and thus having obvious quality control issues.
This is why I built my 8.X instrucitons to intentionally be 8.X and not upgrade to 9.0 via repo without manual intervention.
