Common Core haters
-
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
-
@coliver said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
Do we? I think all evidence points to something in the middle. We want people that are qualified to teach but we as a society (in the US) are unwilling to pay them.
I agree with you
-
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
Maybe after they get a little older they can teach the rest of us, lol... Or maybe you can.
graphics are much appreciated. -
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
I don't agree. If we wanted that, we'd pay that. We can say that we want it all that we want but that's just bluster. Actions speak louder than words. I don't know any local community that, as a community, cares about the education of the community.
-
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
-
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Ugh... don't say that... that makes me feel... old, ha ha ha. (I'm only 36)
-
@dafyre said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Ugh... don't say that... that makes me feel... old, ha ha ha. (I'm only 36)
I'm only 10 years behind you.
-
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
-
@coliver said:
@dafyre said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Ugh... don't say that... that makes me feel... old, ha ha ha. (I'm only 36)
I'm only 10 years behind you.
Only... most of his adult life behind him
-
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
That was pretty much my entire primary and secondary education.
-
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Numbers lines teach people visibly how math works. That is why I cannot understand how so many people shit on it.
Once you have memorized basic math, you do not need a number line to do math functions, this is true, and why some cal it a waste of time. But people who just learn by memorization never actually learn how/why math works. They just learn that 2+2=4 because they were told so.
-
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
I don't agree. If we wanted that, we'd pay that. We can say that we want it all that we want but that's just bluster. Actions speak louder than words. I don't know any local community that, as a community, cares about the education of the community.
Out of all the depressing posts this one makes me the most sad. I don't want to get into a political debate and I don't mean what I'm about to say in a political way but we (the US) are making ourselves obsolete. It's really sad.
-
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
-
@JaredBusch said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Numbers lines teach people visibly how math works. That is why I cannot understand how so many people shit on it.
Once you have memorized basic math, you do not need a number line to do math functions, this is true, and why some cal it a waste of time. But people who just learn by memorization never actually learn how/why math works. They just learn that 2+2=4 because they were told so.
Yes, that's how I understand it now. When we were learning it I couldn't understand why people were having such a hard time with it.
-
here is the problem with communities supporting education....
Education is not universal. Parents of kids in public school are often passionate about the school and its budget. However, only parents of academically gifted children tend to be really passionate about the educational value. Parents of average kids want sports, music, arts, safety (everyone wants that), extra curricular stuff, community building and all kinds of non-academic things because their kids are not going to benefit from those good teachers and high end classes - bottom line, most people are average, welcome to math. And the parents of struggling students care about special needs programs. Very poor families focus on food programs and job skills.
Now that's just parents with kids in public school. Parents with extra resources often opt for private schools or home school taking many of the most academic minded students out of the public school system and making those parents tend to vote for reduced budgets or community programming.
Of the remaining population which involves kids just coming out of high school and everyone without kids... they don't have kids and the tax money is going to the families with kids. It's literally taking the money from the childless to give to the children of others. While many people understand the value of education, there is a huge voting base that feels that this is an intrusion. The same people that don't want free college education, for example. By far, most people are against these taxes and will not vote for increases as it doesn't benefit them.
So the problem with the local community school system is that when allowed to vote on school budgets, it is very natural for them to push education aside, try to lower budgets and do very, very bad things (according to the values of most of us here.)
-
@JaredBusch said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Numbers lines teach people visibly how math works. That is why I cannot understand how so many people shit on it.
Once you have memorized basic math, you do not need a number line to do math functions, this is true, and why some cal it a waste of time. But people who just learn by memorization never actually learn how/why math works. They just learn that 2+2=4 because they were told so.
I agree with this in concept, but I learned how math worked and didn't need a number line.
-
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
-
That's the reason that I liked standardized testing in school. Everything in elementary school was about memorization. But you couldn't memorize of the standardized tests, you just had to figure it out.
-
@scottalanmiller said:
here is the problem with communities supporting education....
Education is not universal. Parents of kids in public school are often passionate about the school and its budget. However, only parents of academically gifted children tend to be really passionate about the educational value. Parents of average kids want sports, music, arts, safety (everyone wants that), extra curricular stuff, community building and all kinds of non-academic things because their kids are not going to benefit from those good teachers and high end classes - bottom line, most people are average, welcome to math. And the parents of struggling students care about special needs programs. Very poor families focus on food programs and job skills.
Now that's just parents with kids in public school. Parents with extra resources often opt for private schools or home school taking many of the most academic minded students out of the public school system and making those parents tend to vote for reduced budgets or community programming.
Of the remaining population which involves kids just coming out of high school and everyone without kids... they don't have kids and the tax money is going to the families with kids. It's literally taking the money from the childless to give to the children of others. While many people understand the value of education, there is a huge voting base that feels that this is an intrusion. The same people that don't want free college education, for example. By far, most people are against these taxes and will not vote for increases as it doesn't benefit them.
So the problem with the local community school system is that when allowed to vote on school budgets, it is very natural for them to push education aside, try to lower budgets and do very, very bad things (according to the values of most of us here.)
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children. I also think this extends to things that kids who are not academically gifted would take advantage of like vocational schooling. We could have a master welder teaching them or some guy who has welded in his life but isn't great at it and can't really teach them anything.
-
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
I don't think that I was taught this but... there were lots of things that I just glossed over because they didn't make sense (as in... we already knew the material, why are we doing busy work.)
Then you failed to understand the concept being taught. You glossed over it think you were better than everyone else. Instead you lacked a basic understanding of math and made up for it with rote memorization.
That's quite the assumption. I certainly didn't think that I was better than anyone. I was the dumb kid in school. Always did terribly on tests. But I understood the math.
Honestly, this is very mean spirited. This is what school was like for me. If I did well at something, people tear you down for being "better". If you are bad at something, they call you dumb. I can't memorize, it's something I just can't do. Rote memorization is something I almost completely lack. Your statement is the farthest thing from describing my situation. I actually have a mental problem with memorization and its one of the reasons I was such a bad student, I simply cannot retain information that I do not understand and most of the teaching in school was solely around memorization.
I should clarify that I was not intending to call you out specifically. Just the general concept of people stating that they thought learning X was a waste of time because they already knew Y.
That came out bad against you as the flow of the conversation was simply me and you. I do apologize for that.
