Fundamental Difference in the Mindset for Updates of Linux vs. Windows Admins
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It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a buddy in college. We were talking about cars and I said it would be cool to have an H1 but no one could afford it. He said "my dad could afford it" and I explained that the gas and maintenance alone would be so much more than a normal car. He said "well he could afford the car." The whole cost goes into this, not just the initial purchase.
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@gjacobse said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@gjacobse said:
In some cases it is directed by software use. There is a case that we are looking at right now that the Software does not run with Office 365 or 2016. But it runs perfectly with Office 2013.
How is this possible? How does software determine the license model for Office 2013?
In the regard of licenses it doesn't. It's the physical ability to use the add-ons and such.
This particular client has software that will not work with Office365 at all (office proplus 2013 or 2016) and will only work with the desktop version of 2013. The software they use is rendering software and the company is saying at least 1-2 years before they will have the updates for the newest software. And no it doesn't run on Windows 10 either...
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@johnhooks said:
But that's the ecosystem they bought into. It's kind of like buying a Ferrari and then realizing that the tires and oil changes and general maintenance is 1000% more than a normal car. So do you just stop maintaining it? Or do you get rid of it and use something that makes sense.
It's more like buying a Honda when someone offered you a BMW for free. Sure it isn't as good and people aren't impressed, but it works. But then you realize that you have to pay for maintenance while maintenance on the BMW is free. So you stop maintaining your Honda and wait for it to seize up and then pay for another Honda again even thought the free BMW with free maintenance is still there.
That's the thing... it cost more up front, it costs more every day. Every day is a chance to start fixing the situation without an investment. Every day companies decide to either pay more, or just wait for the engine to seize.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
SMB suffers from anti-spend-itus.
I see very much the opposite. They often spend from "flagrant displays of waste" as part of the culture. Overspending like crazy... then perhaps getting buyer's remorse. But I come across reckless overspending more than I do overly averse to spending in the SMB space. Both exist, of course.
You see reckless spending in that they bought Windows in the first place. But Windows is all they know - and they made your probably number 1 stated mistake and didn't hire consultants to find the best solution for them. So they just went out and bought a bunch of windows stuff. But as I said they just want to pay once and never again until it breaks, and they expect that to be 5+ year or more, wither that's reasonable or not.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
In the Windows world, we get very much the opposite. People routinely implement patching controls not to accelerate patching but to control holding it back. Patches are often rolled out grudgingly and infrequently. Major updates, like moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, are often actually avoided.
Upgrading version is Linux is free. Until Windows 10, upgrading was never free. Most people that I know allow windows update to run (well because the default in Windows 7 was to run automatically) and those people don't have issues, generally. But they apply the updates because they are free. Where do they stop? when they have to spend money.
Same is true of the initial purchase. If "free" was a real factor, it would have played a role much earlier. I can't believe that they stop "when they spend money" because that fundamentally goes against how the situation was arrived at.
To you a forward thinking full on business man sure - but most SMB's by your own definition are not such thinkers... soooo
Nor should they be unless that is their intended business model. Stay with tried and true recipes for success and use OS's that just about anyone you hire will be familiar with.
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@Dashrender said:
You see reckless spending in that they bought Windows in the first place.
I see reckless spending when someone spends money for one purpose and getting the opposite. That money was thrown away.
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@MattSpeller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
In the Windows world, we get very much the opposite. People routinely implement patching controls not to accelerate patching but to control holding it back. Patches are often rolled out grudgingly and infrequently. Major updates, like moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, are often actually avoided.
Upgrading version is Linux is free. Until Windows 10, upgrading was never free. Most people that I know allow windows update to run (well because the default in Windows 7 was to run automatically) and those people don't have issues, generally. But they apply the updates because they are free. Where do they stop? when they have to spend money.
Same is true of the initial purchase. If "free" was a real factor, it would have played a role much earlier. I can't believe that they stop "when they spend money" because that fundamentally goes against how the situation was arrived at.
To you a forward thinking full on business man sure - but most SMB's by your own definition are not such thinkers... soooo
Nor should they be unless that is their intended business model. Stay with tried and true recipes for success and use OS's that just about anyone you hire will be familiar with.
You feel that SMB busieness people should be bad at business?
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@MattSpeller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
In the Windows world, we get very much the opposite. People routinely implement patching controls not to accelerate patching but to control holding it back. Patches are often rolled out grudgingly and infrequently. Major updates, like moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, are often actually avoided.
Upgrading version is Linux is free. Until Windows 10, upgrading was never free. Most people that I know allow windows update to run (well because the default in Windows 7 was to run automatically) and those people don't have issues, generally. But they apply the updates because they are free. Where do they stop? when they have to spend money.
Same is true of the initial purchase. If "free" was a real factor, it would have played a role much earlier. I can't believe that they stop "when they spend money" because that fundamentally goes against how the situation was arrived at.
To you a forward thinking full on business man sure - but most SMB's by your own definition are not such thinkers... soooo
Nor should they be unless that is their intended business model. Stay with tried and true recipes for success and use OS's that just about anyone you hire will be familiar with.
Windows is not tried and true in the SMB. It's actually the opposite. It's reliably more expensive than things should have been. A conservative business person would question it.
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@johnhooks said:
But that's the ecosystem they bought into. It's kind of like buying a Ferrari and then realizing that the tires and oil changes and general maintenance is 1000% more than a normal car. So do you just stop maintaining it? Or do you get rid of it and use something that makes sense.
They probably should get rid of it and get something new... but Damn that's painful. Even if there is no pride to be lost over it, it's simply a matter of friction. And the powers that be decide it's often better to run with old junk than deal with the friction... of course they don't understand the liabilities they have by saying with old junk.
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@Dashrender said:
. But Windows is all they know - and they made your probably number 1 stated mistake and didn't hire consultants to find the best solution for them.
Exactly. They are reckless in buying things without understanding them or looking into them. They run IT as business people instead of getting IT people to do it. That the business people know Windows is a non-factor. That business people don't know how to "business" is the issue.
If I was starting a business, I'd not make my own legal and accounting or HR decisions, I'd hire experts to advise me. And I would listen. Because my job is to run the business well and I can only do that with good information.
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@Dashrender said:
They probably should get rid of it and get something new... but Damn that's painful. Even if there is no pride to be lost over it, it's simply a matter of friction. And the powers that be decide it's often better to run with old junk than deal with the friction... of course they don't understand the liabilities they have by saying with old junk.
Read: The powers that be often decide to just set their money on fire because they hate admitting that they didn't think things through before.
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@johnhooks said:
It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a buddy in college. We were talking about cars and I said it would be cool to have an H1 but no one could afford it. He said "my dad could afford it" and I explained that the gas and maintenance alone would be so much more than a normal car. He said "well he could afford the car." The whole cost goes into this, not just the initial purchase.
yeah, my friend gets pissed when the news puts surburan owners on complaining about gas prices - you know your vehicle only gets 10 mpg, why are you complaining? you know gas prices go up (normally) so again, why are you complaining.. you should have been aware when you made the purchase.. but the reality is 90% of people don't think about the future like that. that includes most SMBs.
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@Dashrender said:
So they just went out and bought a bunch of windows stuff. But as I said they just want to pay once and never again until it breaks, and they expect that to be 5+ year or more, wither that's reasonable or not.
Except they almost always say that the reason is because of support... totally denying this possibility.
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@Minion-Queen said:
@gjacobse said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@gjacobse said:
In some cases it is directed by software use. There is a case that we are looking at right now that the Software does not run with Office 365 or 2016. But it runs perfectly with Office 2013.
How is this possible? How does software determine the license model for Office 2013?
In the regard of licenses it doesn't. It's the physical ability to use the add-ons and such.
This particular client has software that will not work with Office365 at all (office proplus 2013 or 2016) and will only work with the desktop version of 2014. The software they use is rendering software and the company is saying at least 1-2 years before they will have the updates for the newest software. And no it doesn't run on Windows 10 either...
There is no Office version 2014, unless you're talking about mac?
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Opps medication addled typo
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And to be clear, I'm not saying that Windows is bad or that it should not be chosen. I'm saying that buying Windows when you can't afford to, can't commit to or simply won't embrace it is reckless and silly. If you want to go Windows, fine, but go Windows. We do at NTG. Windows 10, Server 2012 R2, Azure, Office 365. We use MS tools, we keep them up to date. When we use Windows, we embrace it. We don't pay for something we hate and then refuse to maintain it and wait for the wheels to come off.
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@Dashrender said:
@johnhooks said:
It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a buddy in college. We were talking about cars and I said it would be cool to have an H1 but no one could afford it. He said "my dad could afford it" and I explained that the gas and maintenance alone would be so much more than a normal car. He said "well he could afford the car." The whole cost goes into this, not just the initial purchase.
yeah, my friend gets pissed when the news puts surburan owners on complaining about gas prices - you know your vehicle only gets 10 mpg, why are you complaining? you know gas prices go up (normally) so again, why are you complaining.. you should have been aware when you made the purchase.. but the reality is 90% of people don't think about the future like that. that includes most SMBs.
The difference is, consumers don't have a "job" to think about the future like that. But for a business executive, it is quite literally their only job.
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@scottalanmiller said:
That's the thing... it cost more up front, it costs more every day. Every day is a chance to start fixing the situation without an investment. Every day companies decide to either pay more, or just wait for the engine to seize.
The without an investment is not true. There is user training, finding comparable apps and deploying OS and said apps. Those things aren't free.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@MattSpeller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
In the Windows world, we get very much the opposite. People routinely implement patching controls not to accelerate patching but to control holding it back. Patches are often rolled out grudgingly and infrequently. Major updates, like moving from Windows 7 to Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, are often actually avoided.
Upgrading version is Linux is free. Until Windows 10, upgrading was never free. Most people that I know allow windows update to run (well because the default in Windows 7 was to run automatically) and those people don't have issues, generally. But they apply the updates because they are free. Where do they stop? when they have to spend money.
Same is true of the initial purchase. If "free" was a real factor, it would have played a role much earlier. I can't believe that they stop "when they spend money" because that fundamentally goes against how the situation was arrived at.
To you a forward thinking full on business man sure - but most SMB's by your own definition are not such thinkers... soooo
Nor should they be unless that is their intended business model. Stay with tried and true recipes for success and use OS's that just about anyone you hire will be familiar with.
Windows is not tried and true in the SMB. It's actually the opposite.
You've totally lost me - are 100% linux / macos SMB's a thing anywhere?
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@Dashrender said:
The without an investment is not true. There is user training, finding comparable apps and deploying OS and said apps. Those things aren't free.
True, they are relatively free, however. Keeping Windows up to date has the same costs over time. This is a common myth that people point to to keep people from moving off of Windows. But if you watch the real world, Linux can, in some cases, actually lower the cost there. It's not uncommon for the pain of moving to Linux to be lower than the pain of updating Windows. And no matter how much someone avoids updating Windows, it has to happen at some point. And all that "cost" of the Linux move bites you regardless.
And, in fact, the more that rolling updates are avoided on windows, the more costly and painful that becomes as the changes are not small, they are disruptive.
