Apple is fighting the FBI
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Someone suggested to me yesterday that one facet of this case that appears unconstitutional is the government requiring a company to make something so the government can get their access. He didn't express how it was unconstitutional - only that it was.
Thoughts?
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Having now heard about how Apple deploys updates to devices, and that simply having a version of iOS that has weakened security doesn't mean hackers or even the government can put this software onto a device:
quick break while I regurgitate my understanding of how it works.
Apple creates weakened version
Puts weakened version in Apple update repository assigned only to the Serial Number of the device in question.
The device makes a request to the update repository - sending both it's Serial Number and a NONCE. Apple signs the Serial Number and NONCE with it's own private key (the device presumably has a copy of the public key, or can get it from a trusted source)
The device downloads the assigned update and installs it
So, with that in mind, assuming the government has already found a way to download the software in an iphone, the government could create their own weakened version and get a court order for Apple to hand over their private key.
This already has precedence with the demand they made on LavaBit for their private key.
Discuss.
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@Dashrender said:
Someone suggested to me yesterday that one facet of this case that appears unconstitutional is the government requiring a company to make something so the government can get their access. He didn't express how it was unconstitutional - only that it was.
Thoughts?
Seems unconstitutional in that the constitution gives no allowance of the government to require companies to build products on their behalf. Any power not given by the constitution is forbidden by it.
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Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Someone suggested to me yesterday that one facet of this case that appears unconstitutional is the government requiring a company to make something so the government can get their access. He didn't express how it was unconstitutional - only that it was.
Thoughts?
Seems unconstitutional in that the constitution gives no allowance of the government to require companies to build products on their behalf. Any power not given by the constitution is forbidden by it.
Love it! Still not sure how they used the commerce clause to get a fee put on everyone for not having health insurance. - moving on -
OK given that, let's move to my second post. Apple has already created the Public/Private key - so they can just demand that, and use their own code (or demand a copy of Apples current version so they, the government, can modify it).
thoughts?
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@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
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@Dashrender said:
Love it! Still not sure how they used the commerce clause to get a fee put on everyone for not having health insurance. - moving on -
It's not a fee, it's a tax and congress has the right to tax. Why they tax the poor and not the rich, that's its own issue. But healthcare is a straight tax, very simple, totally within their right to levy same as any tax.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because a Judge who doesn't understand this has said Apple needs to hack the phone.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because the law isn't very strong in the US. The country is very litigious but the strength of law is low.
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@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
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@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
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@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
Right. I think in this case, the FBI would have to sue Apple into submission, and Apple, in this case, would fight it and they would wind up in court that way.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
Right. I think in this case, the FBI would have to sue Apple into submission, and Apple, in this case, would fight it and they would wind up in court that way.
Exactly. There is no court order, just he FBI trying to pressure them into doing something the court isn't willing to let the FBI do.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
Apple is currently under a court order to make software and put that software on the device in question. Apple isn't going to sue anyone.. they, hopefully, are going to appeal the court order to do that stuff.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
Right. I think in this case, the FBI would have to sue Apple into submission, and Apple, in this case, would fight it and they would wind up in court that way.
Exactly. There is no court order, just he FBI trying to pressure them into doing something the court isn't willing to let the FBI do.
Are you sure there is no court order? I'll see what I can find.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Since code is speech, forcing someone to code would violate free speech.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure on the court's opinion on the matter. But assuming they agree with you - how is this case not already thrown out?
Because it hasn't actually made it to court yet?
That too, no court involved.
OK good point Dafyre.
If Apple takes it to court, the FBI needs time to find the right judges that owe them favors, etc, etc...
How can Apple not?
Why would Apple do that? Until Apple is taken to court, they don't need to do anything. Not Apple's position to take someone to court.
Apple is currently under a court order to make software and put that software on the device in question. Apple isn't going to sue anyone.. they, hopefully, are going to appeal the court order to do that stuff.
Can't sue courts (actually can't sue any government agency.) That's a flaw of the law in the US, the government is not under the law.
